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Don't get complacent.

Blakevan · · Texas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 56

I'm not sure how which device was used played a role in the poor communication, lack of a plan or the decision to feed slack when I called to be lowered.  The device used may have played a role in how the fall was arrested and I have sent a note with an offer of an adult beverage to the patent holder.  

We were all wearing belay gloves that day which I'm sure helped with braking.  Most routes in Texas are <50' so a lot of people down here don't wear gloves but with 80' - 180' routes in NM everyone decided the rope and ATC/Gris were warming up on the way down.   The group I climb with uses both but I'm happiest when the person on belay is using the device their most comfortable with as that is the safest way of doing it I think.   Personally I prefer a Gri but always have an ATC on my belt for rapping or emergencies.  

I agree with you with regards to the habits and discussion as long as the conversion is kept at civil level.  This is the internet and I don't own the site/thread so people can discuss at will.  My goal was to help people, like me, who think/thought they were past the newbie danger stage only to be reminded that this is a very dangerous activity and no matter how good you get you must pay attention and be diligent in the way you go about managing risk.  I hope I never get another lesson like this one again.  I'm now extremely focused on every aspect of my climbing and I plan on keeping it that way.  I don't care if I'm on 5.0 or a 5.11 all climbs will be treated with respect and an aspect of safety I was originally taught.  The old grumpy trad guys had it right and I was an idiot for letting my attitude change with my increased skill level.

There is a saying in aviation that I think applies to this sport as well "there are old and there are bold but there are no old and bold pilots".  Ego firmly in check now and I plan to lead a safer climbing life.

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

Ken Noyce wrote:

This, exactly this.  It's the time that you decide to lower when communication has broken down somehow that you get dropped.  If your normal operating mode is to lower, you will still be perfectly fine on the one time that you have to rap for some reason.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

@Em Cos- if you get seriously into single pitch sport, you may want to reconsider your approach. 

I believe the "I usually rappel, but sometimes lower" procedure is the most likely to get you dropped.

Your belayers will develop an expectation that you will rappel, and if anything fails in the communication during the exceptions, trouble will follow. 

Obviously there are ways to protect yourself (i.e. weight the rope before unclipping from the anchor) but why take the risk?

@physnchips- if you search for some of the earlier 'rap vs lower' wars, you will find many CO climbers (including myself) arguing for always lowering on single pitch sport climbs.

Ok... let me try this one more time. 

First, if you honestly can't imagine a scenario when rappelling would be preferable, then that would suggest to me that your view of climbing is very narrow - specifically, single-pitch sport climbs that are dangerous to follow, impossible to clean on rappel, and equipped with fixed gear meant for lowering. That's fine, but please specify this instead of presenting the "always lower" as blanket advice for all of climbing. 

I think you are both misunderstanding my approach. I do not exclusively climb single pitch sport, I do not exclusively climb ANY single style of climbing with uniform modes of descent and uniformly equipped for descent in the same way. I doubt I ever will. Therefore, my approach is this:

1. Be competent in a wide variety of climbing skills so I'm ready for a variety of situations, and be comfortable assessing the current situation and adapting to meet its needs. 

2. Discuss with my partner our planned mode of descent (among other things) and communicate very clearly what our plan is and what we can each expect from each other. This may include being aware of potential communication issues - out of sight anchors or roaring river noise, for example. 

3. Lower, or rappel, or walk-off as the situation calls for, with all of the appropriate safe practices for that mode of descent. 

4. When in doubt, default to rapping. This does NOT mean always blindly assume I will rap, and if I find myself in surprise need of lowering despite NOT having communicated that to my partner, just leaning back on the rope and hoping for the best. It means in the RARE situation that I find myself at a set of anchors, with the option to either lower or rap, and for whatever reason I can't be 100% sure that my partner has me on belay, the safer choice will be to rappel, when my life is in my own hands and communication issues are nullified. This may mean leaving gear, or building an intermediate anchor, but the goal in this already f-ed up situation is to ensure my survival, not be efficient or save gear. 

4a. As the climber, "assuming you'll always lower" does NOT guarantee your safety. What you need is for the BELAYER to always assume you'll lower. As I said in my last post, each member of the team climber and belayer, can choose two states - "on belay" (or rappel), or "off belay" (or lean back to lower). If you aren't sure what the other person will do, your SAFEST option is to choose "on belay". For the climber, that means to rappel. For the BELAYER, that means when in doubt keep your partner on belay. That means the BELAYER must always default to lowering. Their job is to keep you on belay without interruption until you are back on the ground safely or they are 100% sure you have asked to be off belay. 

I hope that's clear. I know, Ken, Mark, and myself - none of us are going to change our preferences based on this discussion - but I'm always aware that these conversations are read by many, including new climbers - so my goal is not to persuade but just to make sure that what I am actually advocating for is not misunderstood, because I don't think "you should always rap" makes any more sense than "you should always lower". I think it's situational, you and your partner need to make an intelligent decision about which will be best, and communicate clearly. But on those occasions (which should be very rare) that either of you are not sure what the hell is going on, please always default to "belay". 

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
Em Cos wrote:

4a. As the climber, "assuming you'll always lower" does NOT guarantee your safety. What you need is for the BELAYER to always assume you'll lower. As I said in my last post, each member of the team climber and belayer, can choose two states - "on belay" (or rappel), or "off belay" (or lean back to lower). If you aren't sure what the other person will do, your SAFEST option is to choose "on belay". For the climber, that means to rappel. For the BELAYER, that means when in doubt keep your partner on belay. That means the BELAYER must always default to lowering. Their job is to keep you on belay without interruption until you are back on the ground safely or they are 100% sure you have asked to be off belay. 

That pretty well sums up my view.  If the belayer isn't sure, assume lower.   If the climber isn't sure, rap.

Accepting it is ok to assume that we'll lower allows one to cross through the door into trouble.  Telling one's partner "You can always assume I'll lower since that is my default" unlocks that door.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Em Cos wrote:

I do not exclusively climb single pitch sport, I do not exclusively climb ANY single style of climbing...What you need is for the BELAYER to always assume you'll lower. 

I thought we ARE talking about single pitch routes...whether it's "trad" or "sport" really isn't that relevant. 

But you know how you can help your belayer to always assume you'll lower? By actually always lower unless it's not a reasonable choice, because you've got to be way more stubborn than a donkey to always assume something that only happens 1% of the time.

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
reboot wrote:

I thought we ARE talking about single pitch routes...whether it's "trad" or "sport" really isn't that relevant. 

But you know how you can help your belayer to always assume you'll lower? By actually always lower unless it's not a reasonable choice, because you've got to be way more stubborn than a donkey to always assume something that only happens 1% of the time.

Yeah, I'm not going to lower if rappelling is the better option just to "help" my belayer in their assumptions. 

Any competent belayer should keep you on belay if they for any reason can't be sure you're off belay. 

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
Em Cos wrote:

Any competent belayer should keep you on belay if they for any reason can't be sure you're off belay. 

+1

Have pulled the extra rope up many times while my partner continued belaying because he / she could not clearly make out my words "Off Belay." 

That is the expected deal. Try to discuss it every time when first climbing with someone. Competent belayers seem to naturally tend that way anyways.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

@ reboot- I focus on single pitch sport for two reasons-

I have some recent experience and 

the vast majority of sport climbs are set up to allow lowering. Single pitch trad is much more varied as far as anchors and I don't know that a unified approach is viable.

@Em Cos- 

Not really sure what to say here. 

My expectation is that my belayer will keep me on belay from the time I leave the ground until I return to the ground after clipping the anchor. 

This is my belayer's expectation because I "always lower."

I don't need to communicate anything to make this work. 

I think sport climbing would be safer if the default for all sport climbing was "always lower."

It would be safer yet if anchors didn't require untying. 

It will never be totally safe, but that's life.

In the rare case that I must rappel, I can manage, with slightly more difficulty, to pull up enough rope despite still being on belay, even if the belayer has no idea what is going on.

On the other hand, if you sometimes rap and sometimes lower, the belayer will only know for sure what is planned when communication is successful.  

You may be able to successfully communicate 100% of the time, but most people cannot, so inevitably there will be misunderstandings and someone will get dropped.

Since there is rarely a valid reason to rap rather than lower, why introduce the additional risk?

Blakevan · · Texas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 56
Hobo Greg wrote:

The real question is why you had a gopro for a simple 5.8...

Blakevan wrote:

This climb is a simple 80’ 5.8 and I only climbed it to video the nice views it has.  

Parker Wrozek · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 86

On the ground about to climb and clean the route:

climber one: Hey man are you going to lower or rap

Climber two: I am going to lower (or I am going to rap)

Then go climb. no assumptions.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Parker Wrozek wrote:

On the ground about to climb and clean the route:

climber one: Hey man are you going to lower or rap

Climber two: I am going to lower (or I am going to rap)

Then go climb. no assumptions.

Great idea, that is until you forget to do it (and it will happen).  Of course this will be the time that your belayer assumes you're rapping like you did on the last route while you assume you are lowering due to the two nice thick mussy hooks at the anchors that you knew were at the top of the route and your partner didn't.

jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10
Ken Noyce wrote:

Great idea, that is until you forget to do it (and it will happen).  Of course this will be the time that your belayer assumes you're rapping like you did on the last route while you assume you are lowering due to the two nice thick mussy hooks at the anchors that you knew were at the top of the route and your partner didn't.

Right, and what is the most fail proof, assuredly  safe solution in this scenario?

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
jason.cre wrote:

Right, and what is the most fail proof, assuredly  safe solution in this scenario?

As has been stated many, many, many times in this thread, if you always default to lowering on single pitch routes, you will eliminate this problem.  Once again, the reason not to default to rappel is because there are many single pitch routes where rapping isn't an option, and very few if any where lowering isn't an option.  On the routes where lowering isn't an option, you are still safe rapping even if your belayer defaults to lowering.

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 430
Parker Wrozek wrote:

On the ground about to climb and clean the route:

climber one: Hey man are you going to lower or rap

Climber two: I am going to lower (or I am going to rap)

Then go climb. no assumptions.

No, this is a horrible idea. It **creates assumptions** that may have to change when the anchor is examined or you reach a ledge and your partner wrongly assumes you are safe at the anchor. I have nearly been killed by this.

You want to be ON BELAY until you tell your partner OFF BELAY because you are safely anchored and they second your OFF BELAY **in every circumstance** and you follow up with another OFF BELAY. Then they take you off and when complete say again OFF BELAY.

There is no substitute for this.

If you have safely clipped into the anchor then you are **safe** and you have plenty of time to figure it out signals or make a final determination as to proceed. If your partner anticipates/assumes in any way and takes you off belay before you are ready you can (and people have) end up dead. People also forget what the plan is/was etc etc.

Use proper and clear signals and stay alive.

Complacency and assumptions are a primary source of accidents.

jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10
King Tut wrote:

No, this is a horrible idea. 

LOL!  

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ASK YOUR CLIMBER IF THEY WILL RAPPEL OR LOWER!!!!!

Now I've heard it all.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
jason.cre wrote:

LOL!  

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ASK YOUR CLIMBER IF THEY WILL RAPPEL OR LOWER!!!!!

Now I've heard it all.

If you always operate under the assumption that your climber will lower, there is no need to ask them if they will rappel or lower, they will be safe regardless.

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 430
jason.cre wrote:

LOL!  

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ASK YOUR CLIMBER IF THEY WILL RAPPEL OR LOWER!!!!!

Now I've heard it all.

The context was that a pre-determined plan that could lead to negligence or bad assumptions. Just keep him on belay until you are **directed** otherwise. 

I hope you don't figure this out the hard way.

jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10
Ken Noyce wrote:

If you always operate under the assumption that your climber will lower, there is no need to ask them if they will rappel or lower, they will be safe regardless.

Unless the anchor fails or a rock knocks out the belayer, two things that are more likely to happen lowering vs. rapping.

jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10
King Tut wrote:

The context was that a pre-determined plan that could lead to negligence or bad assumptions. Just keep him on belay until you are **directed** otherwise. 

I hope you don't figure this out the hard way.

I agree with you, I just dont understand why you cant practice *both*.

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 430
jason.cre wrote:

I agree with you, I just dont understand why you cant practice *both*.

Look this is splitting hairs but we are trying to discuss the ideal situation. "I am going to rappel/lower" is problematic because it creates several assumptions on the ground before the situation at the anchor has been fully assessed. It may sound like it is preparing people, but I promise it creates an expectation that can lead to trouble. Best compromise would be "I don't know what's up there, keep me on till I check it out".

1. "i'm gonna rappel" leads to an expectation that he will be off belay and safe, this can and does cause enough problems as it is with people being taken off belay when they are not safe.

2. "I'm going to lower" leads to an assumption that the anchor is ideal for lowering and proper rappelling gear or anchoring gear (to safely pass the rope and set up the rappel) may not be taken up. This is fine if you know the anchor, if you don't its a set up for an epic.  In the OP the lack of communication while at the anchor and that set of "assumptions" lead to a dangerous fall that could have ended much worse. People lean back expecting to be lowered not communicating that is what they want, people start lowering while the leaders is actually doing something else etc.

If the belayer knows he must maintain a proper belay at all times until clearly "off belay" is shared between the partners that is the only safest way. Even if the leader has to fight the belayer to pull up slack (while safely anchored) to set up the rappel that is better than the belayer assuming he wants slack when he doesn't (ie the OP) or the belayer takes him off belay assuming he is safe but he is not.

You may think I am being a pedantic putz about this but I was nearly killed when my belayer assumed I was off and took me off belay without confirmation from me. I took a 100' fall and would have died if I wasn't on a steep multi-pitch route and was able to fall **20 feet past the belay** and not hit anything major. The only thing that stopped me was the anchor and my partner got badly burned hands trying to save me.

Any assumptions in the mind of the belayer should be utterly set aside as soon as you leave the ground. They keep you on belay until they confirm absolutely clearly that is what you want.

As well, please take my 40+ years of climbing experience for what it should be worth: I have found that assumptions, essentially a moment of not thinking about what is really going on about any number of things and confirming them with your partner, are probably the leading cause of climbing accidents. Assumptions/Complacency leads to experienced people having preventable accidents.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
jason.cre wrote:

Unless the anchor fails or a rock knocks out the belayer, two things that are more likely to happen lowering vs. rapping.

Recall.... the discussion is about one pitch sport routes with bolted anchors. How many anchor failures due to lowering have occurred on those kind of routes? 

For that matter, how many accidents have resulted because the belayer was knocked out by a falling rock due to lowering on a sport route?

What is the next outlier edge case with p<.0001 of occurrence that we need to mitigate against?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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