Hands free during rappel

In reply to the OP...

You can just mule off your ATC. Instead of buying extraneous widgets like a shunt, or fussing with trying to wrap a prussik on both sides of the rope, or doing those annoying leg-wraps, you can just mule it off in 10 seconds or so.

There are likely instructional videos somewhere on the internet with step-by-step instructions, but it is basically like the 'mule' part of a 'muenter-mule.'

I tie mine slightly differently (Bow-tie around the 'biner instead of the rope) but there are several ways to mule off an ATC.

HTH.

Mike wrote:In reply to the OP... You can just mule off your ATC. .

I tried this but if you're free-hanging in space it's hard to pull the brake-side up to mule off because there isn't much ATC friction while trying to tie it. It's not bad at all if you can take some weight off with your feet first.

John RB wrote: I tried this but if you're free-hanging in space it's hard to pull the brake-side up to mule off because there isn't much ATC friction while trying to tie it. It's not bad at all if you can take some weight off with your feet first.

Bend the brake strand through the locker (the one that's holding the ATC), then mule it off on the tension side of the rope. Simple and effective.

Gunkiemike wrote: Bend the brake strand through the locker (the one that's holding the ATC), then mule it off on the tension side of the rope. Simple and effective.

Again, doing this on a free hanging rappel is very difficult. By bringing the brake end that close to the ATC to thread it through the locker you lose a lot of friction and if you aren't careful there's potential to lose control. On a vertical face or slab, no big deal but for freehanging raps I can't see it working very well.
Maybe if you had a locker on the leg loop to mule off to or if you extended your rap, it may work better.

Gunkiemike wrote: Bend the brake strand through the locker (the one that's holding the ATC), then mule it off on the tension side of the rope. Simple and effective.

That should work. And I think I could do it with gloves as well. :)

I just bought a grigri 2, though. I might try both and see what works best. Usually rapping on a grigri is really jerky for me and I hate it.

eli poss wrote: Again, doing this on a free hanging rappel is very difficult. By bringing the brake end that close to the ATC to thread it through the locker you lose a lot of friction and if you aren't careful there's potential to lose control. On a vertical face or slab, no big deal but for freehanging raps I can't see it working very well. Maybe if you had a locker on the leg loop to mule off to or if you extended your rap, it may work better.

Actually it's pretty easy. You get more friction when you pass the rope through the carabiner, not less.

I never understood why the leg-wraps caught on but a simple mule hitch hasn't. It's easier, more secure, and more comfortable.

Mike wrote: Actually it's pretty easy. You get more friction when you pass the rope through the carabiner, not less. I never understood why the leg-wraps caught on but a simple mule hitch hasn't. It's easier, more secure, and more comfortable.

Yes I understand that, but before you actually get the brake strand passed through the biner there is a split second where there the braking angle is very weak.

I've done both the leg wraps and a mule hitch many times, and I agree with Eli. The mule hitch is not easier then leg wraps---nothing is easier than just wrapping the rope. The mule hitch is not more secure, because as Eli says there's at least one moment when you can lose control pretty easily, and that possibility is magnified the more rope weight you are trying to haul through the biner. It is true that the mule hitch is more comfortable, so if you are going to dangle for a while it is preferable, but for ease and security the leg wraps win. When doing the mule hitch, the way to keep braking force up is to grab the atc with the left hand, rotate it as much as possible backwards away from the brake strand, at the same time gripping the brake strand where it exits the atc, and hold that position while threading the rope with the right (braking) hand. There are two ways to tie the mule hitch, which is just a slipped half hitch. (Actually, there is a third way which I'm not mentioning as it doesn't seem to have any advantages.) The way shown in most US texts is to tie the mule hitch around the tensioned rappel rope above the ATC. I think this method is inferior to the method in most UK accounts, in which the hitch is tied around the solid side of the ATC carabiner, like this: 

The hand usage as pictured won't work in any situation in which there is a load on the rope however. As I said earlier, the left hand is used to tilt and lock the ATC and the brake stand and the right hand forms the slipped half-hitch around the carabiner's solid side.

rgold wrote:The way shown in most US texts is to tie the mule hitch around the tensioned rappel rope above the ATC. I think this method is inferior to the method in most UK accounts, in which the hitch is tied around the solid side of the ATC carabiner

Just curious why tying the mule around the locker would be better than tying it around the rope? I learned to tie it the way not shown, which was nice because I learned this after already learning the munter mule so the similarity made it easy to learn.

The benefit to that way is that, in theory, you get more braking power from an additional bend around the carabiner. If that is correct, then you would be more likely hold the load with just the ATC friction leaving the mule + overhand unloaded. I don't know if it actually matters but since the mule hitch is a slippery hitch I feel better if it just doesn't even get loaded.

If I mule off the brake side with an ATC, I have to pass the brake line through the biner and then let go of my brake hand after I grab the brake line with my other hand.  This scares me.  Because if I fumble this and start falling, I'm probably dead.

I think John Wilder is right: a grigri (although designed for this specifically) is a better way to go.  It's what I'll be using for now on, unless I can't walk around for a route, then I'll go ground-up with a stick-clip and an ascender/grigri.

Thanks for all the informative replies guys!

Incidentally when I´m stick-clipping a route to replace bolts I protect myself with a back rope. One end of the rope in a ground anchor or more normally the first bolt and then protect with a modified Grigri as if I was lead rope soloing. The other end of the rope is tied into my harness and I stick clip this into the next bolt and prusik on the other strand so I get a 2:1 haul.

John RB wrote:

If I mule off the brake side with an ATC, I have to pass the brake line through the biner and then let go of my brake hand after I grab the brake line with my other hand.  This scares me.  

If you're serious about this sport, you'd better get pretty damn comfortable with the idea that EITHER HAND can be the brake hand.  Your fears are ungrounded.

If you're serious about this sport, you'd better get pretty damn comfortable with the idea that EITHER HAND can be the brake hand.  Your fears are ungrounded.

When people ask "is this device oriented correctly?" "idk man, up to you"...blank stares

Gunkiemike wrote:

If you're serious about this sport, you'd better get pretty damn comfortable with the idea that EITHER HAND can be the brake hand.  Your fears are ungrounded.

I've rappelled on a single 9mm on El Cap with an 80lb haul bag and a Lowe Tuber, free hanging.  The amount of force you need in order to hold the rope is quite significant and it scares me to think that a momentary lapse means that I die.  A knot in the end of the rope is nice, but sometimes you're trying to move fast, or the knot doesn't mean you won't hit a ledge first.

I can rap with either hand.  But changing hands, especially when trying to thread a bight through a biner with gloves on, scares me.  It's too easy to mishandle the rope in the transition when you have 250lbs on a small strand without much friction.  For the scenario in my OP, there is only 180lbs on a 10mm rope, but it's still free-hanging, there still isn't that much friction, and a slip would be the end of me. 

I'm going to use a grigri.

John RB wrote:

I've rappelled on a single 9mm on El Cap with an 80lb haul bag and a Lowe Tuber, free hanging.  The amount of force you need in order to hold the rope is quite significant and it scares me to think that a momentary lapse means that I die.  A knot in the end of the rope is nice, but sometimes you're trying to move fast, or the knot doesn't mean you won't hit a ledge first.

I can rap with either hand.  But changing hands, especially when trying to thread a bight through a biner with gloves on, scares me.  It's too easy to mishandle the rope in the transition when you have 250lbs on a small strand without much friction.  For the scenario in my OP, there is only 180lbs on a 10mm rope, but it's still free-hanging, there still isn't that much friction, and a slip would be the end of me. 

I'm going to use a grigri.

I agree with most of the posters that a gri-gri would be best. However the scenario listed above is nowhere close to the scenario presented in the original post, and if you so choose, you should be able to easily mule-off your ATC to accomplish the task at hand.

While I am loathe to disagree with RGold about these things, I personally find it very easy to mule-off an ATC, even in the above situations that John writes about. In fact I have on many occasions muled-off my ATC on 8mm canyon rope with a heavy pack, and have taught newer students to do so without difficulty. It's even easier on a 9.5mm or so climbing rope. With two hands, you never need to let go of the rope; at a minimum you have 1.5 hands on the brake strand at all times. It takes about 5-10 seconds.

My method, assuming right hand is the primary brake hand, goes something like this: 

1) Right hand is initially on the rope. 

2) Grab brake strand AND device with the left hand, pinching the rope against the device (it's the bend/friction of the rope that holds you, not having a death-grip on the rope) then, while keeping right hand on the rope, let a half-inch or so slip through to ensure the left hand is holding secure. 

3) With left hand holding you, right hand feeds a small bit of rope through the carabiner, while still holding rope secure with right hand.

4) Mule-off carabiner with right hand while still holding rope semi-secure with right hand. Left hand is still holding your weight the whole time.

FWIW I have experimented several times with a sudden failure of the left hand (something that could happen on any rappel) during step 4, and have always been able to hold on with the right hand in 'semi-secure' mode, even with an 8mm canyon rope. However I have never had that happen in the field, because, well, i never let go of the rope lol.

Again, a gri-gri (or similar device) would be optimal. But for for a quick remedy that doesn't cost $100 and weigh a half-pound and require extra widgets, a mule hitch would easily work. YMMV.

Extend your rappel device and use a rappel backup (aka autoblock). My preference is the klemheist, a prusik works well also. I wouldn't use the autoblock hitch in this case, since it's less secure and with all that swinging around, you could make the hitch slip.

A gri-gri means rappelling on a single strand, which makes securing and retrieving the rope more complicated, unnecessarily so in my opinion.

There are many ways to extend your rapel. This picture shows the autoblock hitch being used:

It's strange and somewhat disturbing to me that a mule and/or a klemheist/prusik weren't the first options.

Why are you rappelling without a backup? Yer gonna die. No, but seriously, yer gonna die. 

The answer is autoblock. For redundancy - grigri and auto. EDIT - what Dan said is even better. Kleimheist is even more secure. Although I think the autoblock would still work. 

Also, I know it is common practice to clip the prussik/autoblock into a leg loop. But leg loops are not rated. Just clip the damn thing into your belay loop. 

Here is a video from the Mountaineers showing the ideal setup - https://vimeo.com/113362076

GrumpyCat wrote:

It's strange and somewhat disturbing to me that a mule and/or a klemheist/prusik weren't the first options.

It's also disturbing that the responses have been so varied. Classic MP - Dude asks question A, several users respond with answer to unasked questions B, C, D. Wash, rinse, repeat. 

But really there is only one answer - USE A FUCKING BACKUP. does the job, protects your life. 

To make it even easier - tie off one strand at the top, rap on a grigri/backup on one strand. Climb that strand with the grigri/backup or your microtraxion. 

The video is pretty good but misses a minor and major point.

1. Minor point:  install the autoblock backup on the rope first and it will be easier to load the rappel device since rope weight will be neutralized.

2. Major point:  the rappeller doesn't test the autoblock (which would normally be done while still clipped to the anchor with their tether).  I see a fair number of people rappelling with autoblocks loose enough that I wonder if they will actually grab if called upon.

As a general rule, autoblock backups are not foolproof and can be accidentally released by contact with something.  The original intent was as an emergency backup, but the discussion has veered to the use of autoblocks while doing a lot of hanging on rappel and performing tasks that have both hands and the climbers attention elsewhere, something where a grigri is surely more appropriate.  It is awkward to back up an autoblock below the device with either type of munter-mule and leg wraps might be a better idea, or just a knot in the rappel strands that would ultimately jam in the device + autoblock if the autoblock gets jarred loose.  The autoblock can also be placed above the device, in which case the munter mule can be installed as usual as a backup.  But there are other problems with an autoblock above the device, the main one being that it won't grab in an emergency situation unless the rappeller lets go of it, and the fact that the non-brake hand is involved means that the rappeller could lose control with the brake hand for some reason yet stiil keep the autoblock deactivated.