All done!

I'm deleting this post. It ended up off topic my original statement about multipitch behavior. Thanks for all the input though! I appreciate all the responses, whether they agreed with me or not, about the behavior of this group. 

That is super frustrating. Sorry that you had to deal with that. I don't think we'll ever eliminate the problems that newer climbers create on busy long routes. My solution is to alpine start EVERYTHING. You can't get slowed down if you are the first on the route!

This has been discussed a million times over. Some people will argue you should've woke up earlier and gotten to the climb first if you're complaining about them holding you up.

That being said, I would be totally pissed off about a helmet falling from the sky without anyone shouting Rock to gives parties down low a heads up.

I'm absolutely taking responsibility for our less-than-alpine start. We didn't expected the crowd we encountered on a Tuesday morning. It was certainly a learning experience, and in the future I'll be the first one there.

I have been in your position many times and understand your frustration.

It seemed that the party lacked some basic skills which they should have been dialed in on single pitch routes first. (Anchor building, helmet chin strapping, etc.)

However I feel like the perennial suggestion that beginners should learn multi pitch climbing somewhere else is off base. The routes are popular generally because they are moderate grade, well protected and have straight-forward descents. Where are you suggesting that a beginner should learn multi pitch climbing? On some forgotten, filthy, run-out horror show with 4th class descent?

Of course beginners are responsible for having basic experience and climbing techniques appropriate for the climb. But assuming they do the climbing ethics shouldn't dictate that only people who can onsight the climb with 100% dialed transitions etc. be eligible to make an attempt.

Though an inexperienced shit show they were there first. Get up earlier if you want to be first on popular routes. And with some routes where you can not pass be prepared to wait. About the only misstep is the dropped helmet and not saying anything.

Amateurs at twelve o'clock! Check your safety!

Did any of you actually go speak with them at the Bivy? If no one had the guts to inform them of why their actions were wrong than I can't say that I feel sorry. The thing is that most climbers, even gumbies, are pretty damn nice when you talk to them. That doesn't mean they aren't ignorant though. Sounds like the group had no idea how their inexperience affected others.......and if you didn't tell them they still don't. This post on the internet isn't getting the message to them.

When parties are a few pitches up a route it's hard to tell, but if you can see them at the base there's some telltales. Things that make me run for another route:
Shiny anodizing on a whole rack, no fraying on any slings, shiny rope, BD momentum harness with a gym belay tag hanging off it, tarantulaces on the whole crew, non dirty PAS thong, everyone in a crooked helmet, follower bringing a denali appropriate size pack up a 5 pitch route.

Allen Sanderson wrote:Though an inexperienced shit show they were there first. Get up earlier if you want to be first on popular routes. And with some routes where you can not pass be prepared to wait. About the only misstep is the dropped helmet and not saying anything.

I think the anchor building thing, which really ate up time, was a misstep. I have no problem waiting for people to climb. That's just part of climbing popular routes. But I don't think it's okay to make others wait because you lack very basic skills, which is what happened.

diepj wrote:\Where are you suggesting that a beginner should learn multi pitch climbing? O\

First kiss, a short walk away, is a great 5.7 for someone to learn multipitch skills with a walk off that isn't bad. While wherever I may roam is just a 9, it's got some exposure on a traverse that would probably scare a new leader or follower. First kiss is much more of a cruise.

On the note of weekdays, never count on anything. Last sept I went to do outerspace on a wednesday. We made the same mistake, got to the base of the wall at 10:30. Party 1 was on the normal start, party 2 was just getting on remorse variation, and party 3 showed up behind us. We took the RPM roof hoping to beat both of them to the base of P3, we failed. Party 2 bailed at two tree, Party 1 was slowly going through the 5.9 traverse.
At the P5 belay party 1 was nice enough to let us pass, we cruised through both handcracks in an hour. After a casual descent/repack we looked up to the route. It appeared party 1 had just topped out the handcracks. Party 3 was still waiting.

Wake up early for classics or you're gonna have a bad time.

Hi Robin,
Sounds like a very frustrating scenario. What you are describing sounds like combination of immaturity, inexperience, and inconsideration.

After nearly 15 years of single-pitch sport climbing, I was fortunate to learn how to multipitch at Smith this weekend. While our group was definitely NOT the climbers you described in your post, we did climb WIMR very early on Friday morning and had a great time (we were the first to the crag and the only climbers there for hours). It was well within our limits and tons of fun – even when we bailed at the 3rd pitch due to hail :)

However, the day before we had enough foresight to practice building anchors, belaying from above, and safely rappelling on easy 2 pitch routes like Ancylostoma (P1)/Bookwarm (P2) over in the Dihedrals.

I'd direct all sport climbers looking to practice multi to those type of easy 2 & 3 pitch climbs.

Nick Drake wrote: First kiss, a short walk away, is a great 5.7 for someone to learn multipitch skills with a walk off that isn't bad.

Totally agree. We were actually going to head over to First Kiss instead of WIMR as our first true mulit, but it's closed right now due to the Falcons.

Nick Drake wrote:Amateurs at twelve o'clock! Check your safety!

Ah, Vertical Limit. It's the gift that just keeps on giving.

Isn't First Kiss closed for raptors?

Either way, I still have never understood not buckling a helmet. I have seen many mountain bikers have full face helmets ripped off in a crash because they didn't want to thread the strap through the buckle. Darwin did have a theory though.

caughtinside wrote: This is the great paradox. The most nervous, unskilled climbers will alpine start routes that don't need the alpine start.

I have also used the "lazy-ass" start, where I don't start hiking until 2 or 3pm to reach routes where the descent is different than the route up. It actually works great for alpine rock routes.

Seems like this topic was well covered here:

mountainproject.com/v/getti…

Nick Sweeney wrote: I have also used the "lazy-ass" start, where I don't start hiking until 2 or 3pm to reach routes where the descent is different than the route up. It actually works great for alpine rock routes.

dude, i think i recognize you. were you and a young gal hiking in to do the West Face of NEWS last july, around 2 in the afternoon? at first i thought it was kind of odd, but then i looked up and it was in the sun. which looked a lot more pleasant than when i did it :)

Chris Fedorczak wrote: Totally agree. We were actually going to head over to First Kiss instead of WIMR as our first true mulit, but it's closed right now due to the Falcons. Ah, Vertical Limit. It's the gift that just keeps on giving.

Ah I didn't realize there was a closure, I've only been at smith in the fall. You guys did well if you've been climbing longer though, wherever is a much more memorable route. We ran up first kiss afterwards because it was 5:30 and we wanted an excuse to drink more beer that night.

Climbers as a group have a very strange understanding of the word "ethics."

These climbers, while they sound foolish and bothersome as described, don't seem to have done anything ethically wrong.

Scott O wrote:Climbers as a group have a very strange understanding of the word "ethics." These climbers, while they sound foolish and bothersome as described, don't seem to have done anything ethically wrong.

+1 - so true. Ant time someone has a bone to pick and a 1 sided description follows - the word "ethics" seems to be invoked.

The way I look at it, the odds of gumbies turning things in a CF on their first multis can be high, but it doesn't automatically have to be a horror show. We all started somewhere, and when I see how much I still have to learn after the length of time I've been climbing, no reason not to be humble about it and just have fun.

Unless the gumbies are assholes about it, then they should be trolled mercilessly. Maybe suggest they supplement their breakfast with some fish heads next time.

OP, you made a most basic mistake, you got on a climb with 3 parties ahead of you, a popular climb. When you do that, you just put up and shut up and don't do the same mistake twice. Great learning curve.

Scott O wrote:Climbers as a group have a very strange understanding of the word "ethics." These climbers, while they sound foolish and bothersome as described, don't seem to have done anything ethically wrong.

I would agree with you if we're discussing the "ethics" of adding a bolt to an existing route, when no one is really affected (except someone's ego). But in this case, I do think it's unethical to block a bunch of other people from climbing by your incompetence and inexperience. Wasting other people's time is not right.