New Rock Climbing Dog Toy Advice! - College student in need of some advice
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Hi all, |
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Interesting idea, pet stuff is big biz, so is climbing stuff. |
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Honest feedback: You can probably sell a shitload of these because people love gimmicky things and ways to bridge between two different things they love (climbing and their dogs) but it seems like a crappy training tool as a climber. Hangboard training is usually pretty static. You want to weight your fingers in a particular grip and then HANG. My 75 labrador playing tug-of-war is anything but static. I've got really strong climbing hands but she's going to just rip a toy out of my hand if I'm in a crimp or a real climbing pinch. I can also imagine there's some injury potential to getting into such a hand position and having a dog yank on it. Maybe if I had a wiener dog or a jack russell it'd be different, but I'm just not seeing it. |
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Hi John, |
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AndrewArroz wrote:Honest feedback: You can probably sell a shitload of these because people love gimmicky things and ways to bridge between two different things they love (climbing and their dogs) but it seems like a crappy training tool as a climber. Hangboard training is usually pretty static. You want to weight your fingers in a particular grip and then HANG. My 75 labrador playing tug-of-war is anything but static. I've got really strong climbing hands but she's going to just rip a toy out of my hand if I'm in a crimp or a real climbing pinch. I can also imagine there's some injury potential to getting into such a hand position and having a dog yank on it. Maybe if I had a wiener dog or a jack russell it'd be different, but I'm just not seeing it.He's not selling actual training OR playing with the dog.....He's selling the Idea of playing with the dog somehow making you a better climber......Or training for climbing being fun.......It's like selling air........Genius, it doesn't matter if it works, what matters is people go "this is cool" and by one. Maybe if you saw Ondra hanging one-handed from an overhang dangling a pit-bull from one of these you'd understand. Or at least want to buy one........JB |
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AndrewArroz wrote:Honest feedback: You can probably sell a shitload of these because people love gimmicky things and ways to bridge between two different things they love (climbing and their dogs) but it seems like a crappy training tool as a climber. Hangboard training is usually pretty static. You want to weight your fingers in a particular grip and then HANG. My 75 labrador playing tug-of-war is anything but static. I've got really strong climbing hands but she's going to just rip a toy out of my hand if I'm in a crimp or a real climbing pinch. I can also imagine there's some injury potential to getting into such a hand position and having a dog yank on it. Maybe if I had a wiener dog or a jack russell it'd be different, but I'm just not seeing it.Good points, but his market seems to be further downmarket from the climbing area. You may not buy it if you're focused on efficient training, but your mom knows you have a dog and knows you like climbing, and there you have the recipe for a great gift. That opens up a market to someone who may not reside in either segments (pet owner or climber) but could push them towards a purchase. More market research would never be a bad idea, though. |
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That's why I said he'd probably sell a shitload. I'm not saying it's a bad business idea. Just that it's not a great climbing training aid. |
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Three suggestions: |
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AndrewArroz wrote:That's why I said he'd probably sell a shitload. I'm not saying it's a bad business idea. Just that it's not a great climbing training aid. Also, given that the OP is young and apparently in college, I want to add how much I admire your drive and initiative for even trying to launch a new product. Great work.Andrew, thanks for the compliment! As to the comment about it not being a good climbing tool, you are right that it entirely depends on the dog and the climber. That was the whole reasoning about the different grips. The initial feedback I got from most people was that it was difficult to hold onto. That's why I am adding a huge jug on the back of the hold for people with larger dogs that might struggle with the pinch. |
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Greg Stinson wrote: As to the comment about it not being a good climbing tool, you are right that it entirely depends on the dog and the climber. That was the whole reasoning about the different grips. The initial feedback I got from most people was that it was difficult to hold onto. That's why I am adding a huge jug on the back of the hold for people with larger dogs that might struggle with the pinch.Following up on Andrew's comment: Regardless of how you design the hold, this device will never be useful or valid for proper training. An essential element in any sort of training is carefully controlled progressive loading. A dog tugging erratically on the other end of a rope is the exact opposite of carefully controlled loading. No one will be using this as a training tool to replace the hangboard, etc. But this is OK. Your idea is awesome anyway. Even if it isn't a "training" tool, it is a great climbing-themed fun/novelty/gift item. Somewhat similar to the climbing hold mug (where the mug handle is replaced by a plastic climbing hold). No one is actually building climbing strength with such an item, but people love them anyway. It brings a reminder of climbing into everyday life, and makes for a good gift item. The important thing is to understand what your target demographic will be, and adjust your design and marketing as such. I repeat: the core "training" crowd will not be interested in this product (except as a fun novelty). The general gym and recreational climbing crowd will be. As such, if you want the product to be as successful as possible, make sure to optimize the design to work for the "novelty" purpose. This will mean leaning toward a larger and more positive hold that your average novice climber can hold on to. There really isn't a need to have tiny "training" crimps, since, again, this isn't going to be a useful device for training. In general, it is probably best to keep the design compact and simple. No need to have an entire hangboard's worth of holds for "training" selection. Just keep it simple with one or two holds. This will make it less complicated and it will fit more easily in a bag. Same deal with marketing. Don't get caught up in describing the "training" uses. Make it simple and fun. Advertise in Climbing magazine, since they are more targeted toward the broader/casual climbing crowd. Lastly, there is the price-point. People will pay $60 for a proper training tool, but they won't for a silly novelty gift. Your product is the latter, so try to keep it under $30. The good news is that the market for casual/recreational gym climbers is much bigger than the market for legitimate training tools. I bet you'll sell a ton of these. |
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All this from JCM is great advice. Spot on. Don't spend a bunch of money on molds, manufacturing and R&D making it "right" as a hangboard replacement. It'll never be that. Instead, make it a great dog-owner toy that also happens to remind the owner of a gym climbing hold and, thus, make them happy. JCM wrote: Following up on Andrew's comment: Regardless of how you design the hold, this device will never be useful or valid for proper training. An essential element in any sort of training is carefully controlled progressive loading. A dog tugging erratically on the other end of a rope is the exact opposite of carefully controlled loading. No one will be using this as a training tool to replace the hangboard, etc. But this is OK. Your idea is awesome anyway. Even if it isn't a "training" tool, it is a great climbing-themed fun/novelty/gift item. Somewhat similar to the climbing hold mug (where the mug handle is replaced by a plastic climbing hold). No one is actually building climbing strength with such an item, but people love them anyway. It brings a reminder of climbing into everyday life, and makes for a good gift item. The important thing is to understand what your target demographic will be, and adjust your design and marketing as such. I repeat: the core "training" crowd will not be interested in this product (except as a fun novelty). The general gym and recreational climbing crowd will be. As such, if you want the product to be as successful as possible, make sure to optimize the design to work for the "novelty" purpose. This will mean leaning toward a larger and more positive hold that your average novice climber can hold on to. There really isn't a need to have tiny "training" crimps, since, again, this isn't going to be a useful device for training. In general, it is probably best to keep the design compact and simple. No need to have an entire hangboard's worth of holds for "training" selection. Just keep it simple with one or two holds. This will make it less complicated and it will fit more easily in a bag. Same deal with marketing. Don't get caught up in describing the "training" uses. Make it simple and fun. Advertise in Climbing magazine, since they are more targeted toward the broader/casual climbing crowd. Lastly, there is the price-point. People will pay $60 for a proper training tool, but they won't for a silly novelty gift. Your product is the latter, so try to keep it under $30. The good news is that the market for casual/recreational gym climbers is much bigger than the market for legitimate training tools. I bet you'll sell a ton of these. |
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Cool idea Greg, hope you do well with this! |
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JCM wrote: Following up on Andrew's comment: Regardless of how you design the hold, this device will never be useful or valid for proper training. An essential element in any sort of training is carefully controlled progressive loading. A dog tugging erratically on the other end of a rope is the exact opposite of carefully controlled loading. No one will be using this as a training tool to replace the hangboard, etc. But this is OK. Your idea is awesome anyway. Even if it isn't a "training" tool, it is a great climbing-themed fun/novelty/gift item. Somewhat similar to the climbing hold mug (where the mug handle is replaced by a plastic climbing hold). No one is actually building climbing strength with such an item, but people love them anyway. It brings a reminder of climbing into everyday life, and makes for a good gift item. The important thing is to understand what your target demographic will be, and adjust your design and marketing as such. I repeat: the core "training" crowd will not be interested in this product (except as a fun novelty). The general gym and recreational climbing crowd will be. As such, if you want the product to be as successful as possible, make sure to optimize the design to work for the "novelty" purpose. This will mean leaning toward a larger and more positive hold that your average novice climber can hold on to. There really isn't a need to have tiny "training" crimps, since, again, this isn't going to be a useful device for training. In general, it is probably best to keep the design compact and simple. No need to have an entire hangboard's worth of holds for "training" selection. Just keep it simple with one or two holds. This will make it less complicated and it will fit more easily in a bag. Same deal with marketing. Don't get caught up in describing the "training" uses. Make it simple and fun. Advertise in Climbing magazine, since they are more targeted toward the broader/casual climbing crowd. Lastly, there is the price-point. People will pay $60 for a proper training tool, but they won't for a silly novelty gift. Your product is the latter, so try to keep it under $30. The good news is that the market for casual/recreational gym climbers is much bigger than the market for legitimate training tools. I bet you'll sell a ton of these.Hey JMC thank you for your feedback! This is definitely really helpful. The point of focusing on the more general crowd vs the intense exercise group is a great point. In terms of price point I was looking for under $20 because I can't really see people spending anymore than that. |
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t.farrell wrote:Is there going to be a version for dry tooling? This is essentially a metolius rock ring with a hole drilled in it and ropes threaded through, right? I feel like it'd be much easier to go buy a used hold at my gym for $3 and thread it with some accessory cord. Advice: 1. Have a finished product before you seek media. Mail them samples. If you don't have sales/aren't viewed as viral, you'll (likely) need to offer whatever media outlet some sort of incentive. If it's going to be as big as you think, then maybe the product alone (especially exclusivity) would be enough to incentivize a magazine to pick it up, but I would expect to pay if I were you. 2. I do not have experience here. No comment. 3. Pick up the phone/email them. Even if you're just reaching customer service, if you come off as serious (and persistent), you'll eventually end up speaking to someone who can assist. Say you have a new climbing product/dog toy and are interested in licensing it to them. Ask if they have a corporate contact that you can speak to. Also you're probably better off pursuing dog toy/dog outdoor product manufacturers.Hi farrell, In response to just buying a hold and making it yourself that wouldn't be a dog toy then. The blue climbing hold will be made of rubber as well so that the dog can chew on it and play with that if they don't want to play tug of war for whatever reason. I also found that dogs love to lick out penut butter from the center of the hold. I ended up reaching out to So Ill and Meticulous like others have reccomended! Both said they were not looking for products at this time, but you were right it was as easy as just calling them up. Thank you for that advice! |