Gear Guy on Intentional Falls
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Full article - should-climbing-gyms-allow-you-to-practice-lead-falls |
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Wow. I couldn't disagree more. While I get the point about victory whips (stupid idea anywhere), learning to fall is a crucial aspect of learning to lead, and the purpose of the gym is to learn and train those skills so that you can be safe outside. It is in the gym's best interest to ENCOURAGE practice falls (my gym, also in the Midwest, just hosted a whipper clinic) so that people don't injure themselves when the real deal happens. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this policy opens them up to liability; if a person were trained in the gym but not allowed to practice this skill and becomes injured in a fall, I don't see why they couldn't sue. |
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Just to make it clear - this thread should be a list of creative ways of selling your intentional fall as truly accidental to an overly attentive and concerned gym employee |
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";Oops."; |
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any gym that doesn't supply the ropes should have no problem on allowing falls, its part of the sport in a controlled environment. obviously the liability is there so I can agree massive whips are not to be taken lightly, but if you wanna do that to your own gear then that's on you. You pay a pretty dime for any gym out there, so replacing a quick draw or a top anchor shouldn't be an issue IMO. |
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Considering that every gym I where I have take a lead test has required me to take a fall, and that when my daughter was going through a lead class, they took lots of falls, I can't say that I have seen this in the wild. |
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I'll try and stick to the question that you wanted an answer too, though it's hard because I find myself in a similar predicament where my gym doesn't allow leading at all outside of the classes they teach. (I'm in Ohio so it's annoying that the only time I can practice falling on lead is after a 6 hours trip to the Red) |
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John Wilder wrote: The gym is not there for you to train those skills so you can be safe outside- the gym is there to make money and encourage people to visit their facility. They are not the least bit concerned about what people do outside of their facility (nor should they be). As for the intentional fall thing- most gyms I've been to require at least one intentional fall as part of their lead certification. I have been to a few facilities that don't allow intentional falls and I've always thought that was a bit much- it's one thing to ask that people don't come in and take 50 whips in a session so your ropes last a little longer, its another thing to completely forbid any kind of intentional falling. This strikes me as one of those things where the staff should exercise common sense.+1 - I think John nailed several key points. The gym is not the least bit interested in what you are doing outside. Are you going to sue them when you rap off the end of your rope because you couldn't practice at the gym |
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They don't need to prove anything; they'll probably just tell you to knock it off and then tell you to fuck off if you get argumentative about it. |
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amarius wrote:Just to make it clear - this thread should be a list of creative ways of selling your intentional fall as truly accidental to an overly attentive and concerned gym employeeYour freacking hold rotated...... |
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Simple answer: Find a new gym. |
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Gym crew just don't need any formal reason to refuse a guest in service. They just say: "We refuse you in our service tonight. If you need more information on the case please contact our manager. Please, leave the facility." And everybody around understand what just happened and why. |
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John Wilder wrote: They are not the least bit concerned about what people do outside of their facility (nor should they be).I completely agree with you on everything besides what is in the parenthesis. Gyms should be, at least slightly, concerned with what people are doing outside. They are after all the producers of most of the new generation of climbers that are going out into the crags, which makes me feel that they have a responsibility in at least providing some preparation in terms of stewardship and proper behavior that would minimize impact.I guess this is a whole other topic though. On topic. Whenever I have done a lead test there has been a mandatory fall. Admittedly I have not lead in a gym in quite sometime because I hate clipping so many freaking draws. |
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climbing friend, |
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Is this where I sign up and pay for my kids bday party?!? |
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Most of the time it comes down to insurance policy. A company, who is not run by climbers, states to grant insurance the gym has to follow safety guidelines and regulate the dangers of climbing. Though we all know climbing risks are already there, they try to limit it as much as possible. That's why we are seeing gyms starting to fix grigris to top ropes. But the keyboard warriors aren't up in arms about certain gyms not teaching people how to load belay devices properly and using alternate devices. Which might I add, are pretty much required to go outside at some point. |
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I practice falls all the time at my gym. But the way I go about it is by pushing myself on routes that I am most likely going to fall off of. It's a win-win situation. Either you take a gnarly whipper or break through a mental barrier that's been holding you back from attempting routes outside your comfort zone. |
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It's a non issue really. Unless you're acting like an ass, there's no way the gym would ever know if you're taking "real" falls or practice whips. I've done the latter on many occasions with no repercussions. |
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Learning to catch and take leads falls is integral to climbing safely. That being said, 90% of the intentional falls I see in the gym are hilariously inept - new leaders taking falls on low angle terrain with jumbo holds, and belayers who spike the shit out of them each time. I can see why gyms would want to discourage this practice, aside from the wear it takes on hardware and ropes. |
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Eric Engberg wrote: +1 - I think John nailed several key points. The gym is not the least bit interested in what you are doing outside. Are you going to sue them when you rap off the end of your rope because you couldn't practice at the gym+1 Don't think you can sue a gym for something that didn't happen within their facilities (in such an injury case). You can try, but motion to dismiss will be granted. The gym does not take on responsibility for risks you take outside the gym. There would be 100 more proximate factors in the fall that contributed to your injury other than not being able to practice in that particular gym. Even if you could have practiced at that particular gym, you may have gotten injured anyway. You could have also practiced at a different gym. But I see what you mean. One of the gyms I went to didn't allow grigris and I wondered how their members could learn to belay with a grigri outside. |
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sherb wrote: +1 Don't think you can sue a gym for something that didn't happen within their facilities (in such an injury case). You can try, but motion to dismiss will be granted. The gym does not take on responsibility for risks you take outside the gym. There would be 100 more proximate factors in the fall that contributed to your injury other than not being able to practice in that particular gym. Even if you could have practiced at that particular gym, you may have gotten injured anyway. You could have also practiced at a different gym. But I see what you mean. One of the gyms I went to didn't allow grigris and I wondered how their members could learn to belay with a grigri outside.You can honestly sue for anything you want but no lawyer would take a case like that. There are too many external/non gym related variables that could contribute to an incident. The idea of sueing in this situation is a hilarious and sad to think that's possible or the correct avenue to take. That's like me sueing my kids middle school teacher for not correctly teaching a subject that he failed in high school. |