I don't know who Davita Gurian is, but I like her...

eveningsends.com/when-femin…

Good point of view on the bullshit notion that female climbers are oppressed by their male counterparts and the climbing industry.

Interesting addition to the dialogue...

Davita is cool in my book, for sure.

"The 65 percent of women, cited in the Flash Foxy survey, who say they’ve felt uncomfortable in the gym (compared to the 29 percent of men) might do well to begin by analyzing themselves first before demanding that everyone around them cater to their every sensitivity."

A response to Davita Gurian:

heroes.climbfind.com/post/1…

Read Davita's article the other day, thought she was absolutely spot on, at least from what I've witnessed in climbing the last 20 years

part of the article she talks about guys saying "You’ll be fine, just do the move.” while the women said “You can bail or try the crux, whatever you want to do, I’ve got you.”

and that bothered shelma.

guys do not say that stuff because they are sexist against women lol. i have heard male and female partners say both (or slight variations of both) to me (a guy).

i have noticed in past experiences, some of the females ive climbed with did not like the typical encouragement "go for it, come on give it a try" type of thing. but thats not sexist of me to say that. id say that to anyone. seems like itd be sexist of me to say something else, because of the sex of the climber.

how did people get so f'in sensitive?

luckily my main partner for the last few years and i just agree not to do the bs cheerleader (male or female;) stuff, we just talk when we need. no one ever gets offended.

Jake wander wrote:how did people get so f'in sensitive?

Participation trophies and "It's OK, you did your best"

Jon H wrote: Participation trophies and "It's OK, you did your best"

seriously, i couldnt help but laugh. someone was offended because their bouldering partner didnt encourage them in the way they wanted to be encouraged. damn...

I like the "man" in the example's way of encouraging better, makes me know they are ok with giving a long belay. The "woman's way" sounds like this person doesn't care whether I try or not, and secretly wants me to decide not to do it -like I'm wasting this person's time belaying me if I do go for it. I don't agree these are typical men and women's way of encouragement. Many of my female partners encourage me in the first way.

I never feel uncomfortable in the gym due to men. I wish Shelma and Wendy wouldn't have spoken for us all.

EDIT to add:
If anything, I thought Shelma's article was a "microagression" against men, where she attacks men for being attracted to the opposite sex as biology would have it, which women are guilty of also (I am guilty) yet ironically she gives herself a sexually alluring nickname. Nowadays it's tough to know what to do as a man. Have to be both strong and sensitive. Chivalry is apparently sexist but not helping is asshole-y. And never talk to women, or you're hitting on her, or a pig. No wonder marriage rates are falling in overly feminist countries. I feel that this country has overcorrected in many ways.

Wendy is mistaken in saying feminism is just wanting to be equal. Have you heard of any crazy permanent alimony stories eg indentured servitude? Of course that is more favoring the poor person, but often judges favor women (but now that women are paying it, or have some of their income docked to support their husband's first wife's unemployed lifestyle, they are fighting it). Or women who have the baby due to it being "their body" but the man has to pay child support for 18+ years (till the kid is out of High school)?

Wendy is pretending there are no physical/physiological differences between men and women (eg small fingers. What about reachy moves?). She wants a world where there is no gender divide in sports but I was appalled when Fallon Fox a transgender woman was allowed to box ciswomen.

I guess we are all different in our opinions and this is a huge discussion but I just want to vote in favor of Davita.

Ana Tine wrote:I like the "man" in the example's way of encouraging better, makes me know they are ok with giving a long belay. The "woman's way" sounds like this person doesn't care whether I try or not, and secretly wants me to decide not to do it -like I'm wasting this person's time belaying me if I do go for it. I don't agree these are typical men and women's way of encouragement. Many of my female partners encourage me in the first way. I never feel uncomfortable in the gym due to men. I wish Shelma wouldn't have spoken for us all.

dont worry, for every girl offended by the comments i quoted, there is a guy offended for something equally as lame. and luckily these people are in the minority. unluckily they are also the squeakiest wheel.

I deeply appreciate the article as I don't see the kind of blatant misogyny in climbing which all the rhetoric is founded upon. I also liked how it gave credit to us climbers for being generally more enlightened about these issues than the mean of American society, which is how I have always seen climbing.

The only problematic thing I see in any kind of significant quantities in climbing circles are all of the people trying to put social fences around others using the blunt club which is unfounded negative labeling, which is typically used specifically to control women either directly or indirectly, with 'misogynist' just being one of many potential negative labels. The irony when this is done using the 'misogynist' label is tremendous. Thus Davitas piece is a welcome, long overdue, and much needed counterbalance. Thanks Davita :)

I don't know this Ana person either, but I like her, too.

the best place to cure a climbing addiction seems to be the gym.
My wife was once a curvy 20 something, she was careful to dress in layers.
I have a teenage daughter, her modesty (as a result of the Hanna Montana chick and all the others)
she is almost painfully shy. That some girls are brought up to flaunt what they have, wear reveling
tight fitting clothing and then claim they don't want the attention is hogwash.

Ana Tine wrote:I like the "man" in the example's way of encouraging better, makes me know they are ok with giving a long belay. The "woman's way" sounds like this person doesn't care whether I try or not, and secretly wants me to decide not to do it -like I'm wasting this person's time belaying me if I do go for it. I don't agree these are typical men and women's way of encouragement. Many of my female partners encourage me in the first way. I never feel uncomfortable in the gym due to men. I wish Shelma and Wendy wouldn't have spoken for us all. EDIT to add: If anything, I thought Shelma's article was a "microagression" against men, where she attacks men for being attracted to the opposite sex as biology would have it, which women are guilty of also (I am guilty) yet ironically she gives herself a sexually alluring nickname. Nowadays it's tough to know what to do as a man. Have to be both strong and sensitive. Chivalry is apparently sexist but not helping is asshole-y. And never talk to women, or you're hitting on her, or a pig. No wonder marriage rates are falling in overly feminist countries. I feel that this country has overcorrected in many ways. Wendy is mistaken in saying feminism is just wanting to be equal. Have you heard of any crazy permanent alimony stories eg indentured servitude? Of course that is more favoring the poor person, but often judges favor women (but now that women are paying it, or have some of their income docked to support their husband's first wife's unemployed lifestyle, they are fighting it). Or women who have the baby due to it being "their body" but the man has to pay child support for 18+ years (till the kid is out of High school)? Wendy is pretending there are no physical/physiological differences between men and women (eg small fingers. What about reachy moves?). She wants a world where there is no gender divide in sports but I was appalled when Fallon Fox a transgender woman was allowed to box ciswomen. I guess we are all different in our opinions and this is a huge discussion but I just want to vote in favor of Davita.

It's good to hear that there are women out there who haven't subscribed to the "complaint feminism". I often feel as though I can't stand up for myself in these kinds of conversations because I'll just be labeled as a misogynistic pig. Granted, I have made some pretty sexist jokes in my life, but so has every other male raised in the southeast. It sometimes seems like I'm not allowed to be attracted to women, and for many of the double standards women face, I have to face a male-equivalent double standard.

Funny story:
I once saw two of my teachers get into a stalemate for a solid 20min. One was raised in Alabama and was holding the door open for the other, who was a die-hard "complaint feminist". She refused to go through because he was holding the door open. He refused not to hold the door open for her because that is unacceptable in southern culture. They just stood there arguing for 20min while I laughed my ass off.