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Valley Giant Issues

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
Josh Janes wrote:Thanks for sharing this info, Matt. I was about to contact him and order one, but I think I'll hold off. I get that he's (probably?) a one-man operation and that he makes them to order, but that doesn't excuse poor communication. A six-month wait time is fine if it is communicated up front. Unfinished cam lobe surfaces are fine if that's the new method of construction (but again, explain this up front). For what it's worth, every VG 9 I've seen and used (including the ones pictured on the VG website's "Using a Valley Giant" page) have had finished, toothed lobe surfaces. I think they are awesome, beautiful cams, but inconsistent manufacturing doesn't exactly breed me confidence in a piece of gear. I don't understand why people are mocking you when you shelled out good money for a product that not only doesn't meet your expectations but doesn't even live up to the designer and manufacturer's standards. I would not accept this at all and if he continued to ignore me I'd get my credit card company involved.
Why does it always have to be one of " YOU GUYS" a "General" Adnauseator?
What is that, segmentation through seniority?

Any way read the posts, most pointed out clearly to there being little to no issue with the function.

Adding the busy work of milling in channels, to provide essentially cosmetic appeal
Taking the time to create a jig, adding a step, cutting into a perfectly good cam lobe?
That would show worse business practice.

I do see the "Dulling the edge" suggestions,
that seems more a personal choice, a modification, that may not be needed.

Get on some thing with them before the buyers remorse takes hold, if it isn't to late already.

""
Matt Thomas wrote:definitely sharp enough to cut into slings when stuffed into a pack
""

Two VGs >> One stuff sack, 4 VGs One carried Three in the stuff sack

))(%^} if you plan to carry more than 6 big cams . . ? .ive got a few skinny 5s & 2x6s . . .Can I come along ?)((

They carry best 'on-board' Not inside your pack, unless you carry a very big pack. They ride well underneath. - sleeping bag style.

Also, two or three leap fogging
Climbs and they will need to meet a file or # grit,
3eM makes a great Sanding block.

If you want one you should not hesitate due to one individuals experience.

You can verify that some of the climbers who have responded are Lifers" who both own and use the tools for the designed purpose.

They are not meant to have teeth it is a surface/ strength of lobe area Non-issue.

Yo! Man !
Windexxxx, so on!
better than the beaten kitten in the ally referance that was employed to such great effect that it got a ssrly? From an admin.
! Then all that went away - Haha hee hee .
Dude knows what he is saying , V V V V V V
Ralph Swansen · · Boulder CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 761

The argument of better purchase with textured lobes may be better with small cams. But the tiny c 3's and x 4's are smooth.

The aggressiveness of the Dragons makes we worry about wear on the stone. Especially in places like The Creek.

windexxx · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 30
Josh Janes wrote:Thanks for sharing this info, Matt. I was about to contact him and order one, but I think I'll hold off. I get that he's (probably?) a one-man operation and that he makes them to order, but that doesn't excuse poor communication. A six-month wait time is fine if it is communicated up front. Unfinished cam lobe surfaces are fine if that's the new method of construction (but again, explain this up front). For what it's worth, every VG 9 I've seen and used (including the ones pictured on the VG website's "Using a Valley Giant" page) have had finished, toothed lobe surfaces. I think they are well-designed, functional cams, but inconsistent manufacturing doesn't exactly instill confidence. I don't understand why people are mocking you when you shelled out good money for a product that not only doesn't meet your expectations but doesn't even live up to the designer and manufacturer's standards (whether or not the physics of teeth on a cam lobe make a difference in holding power is irrelevant). I would not accept this at all and if he continued to ignore me I'd get my credit card company involved.
Perhaps I am missing it on the website, but I cannot find any mention that establishes the expectations or standards you seem to believe this cam is deviating from.

There is no mention of surface texture that I can see. Maybe due to the constant changes and improvements being made. If you assume one way to be correct, that is on you.

There is no mention of delivery time-frame, or a communication deadline. Assuming one, and then getting upset when you were wrong is silly and no ones fault but your own.

I am not sure how it is in your machine shop, but in mine here are a few things that have delayed projects:

- Breaking tooling and not being able to replace it immediately.

- Material suppliers being out of stock with something that is typically consistent and easy to acquire.

- Implementing design changes or improvements that either do not work or fail scrutiny.

- My day job.

- Climbing trips.

- Family emergencies.

- The holidays. Every year, without fail.

- Not wanting to hit the shop this week or answer emails re: something that is going to take a long time anyway. deeeleeete.

You got your custom hand-made gear. That was the only claim made by the purveyor. If you expect him to abide by rules for a game he is not even playing, have fun.
Brendan Blanchard · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590

Great list! Allow me to dispatch them with equal ease!

windexxx wrote:-Breaking tooling and not being able to replace it immediately.
Okay, so TELL your customers you will have trouble making, completing, or taking on new orders. See: communication.
windexxx wrote:- Material suppliers being out of stock with something that is typically consistent and easy to acquire.
See: communication. Nuff said.
windexxx wrote:- Implementing design changes or improvements that either do not work or fail scrutiny.
TELL your customer if something like this happens and you'll have trouble making, completing, or taking on orders...or don't experiment on products you're planning on sending out the door. See: communication?
windexxx wrote: - My day job
You were hired to complete work, sorry?
windexxx wrote:- Family emergencies.
See, communication. No, you don't need to tell everyone exactly what happened, but if your shop (or just you) won't be churning out wingdings that were ordered, tell the customer.
windexxx wrote: - The holidays. Every year, without fail.
Please tell me what religion you follow that allows for 6-8 month delays in your work (and the job that lets you take this time off!).
windexxx wrote:- Not wanting to hit the shop this week or answer emails re: something
Spotty communication is one thing, but no contact, especially after a well worded and rather minor complaint. No, that's not really okay.
windexxx wrote:- Climbing trips
Sorry, you were hired willingly. I know, work sucks, right?

Sounds like there would have been zero issue if the OP got what he was (not unsurprisingly) expecting, or at least had some correspondence when he was dissatisfied. Those are two pretty basic requests, which he made pretty timidly in his first post, warning others who might go in (not unsurprisingly!) expecting similar things.

So, all that said, why does the forum smell like a chimp's arms got so pumped that he just started sh*tting right into the fan instead of slinging it?
Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 342

You received a perfectly functional cam. Go climbing and the pointy bits will soon wear down so as not to offend your delicate hands. Yer climbing off widths right? And yer worried about some rough edges? Maybe stick to clipping bolts.

Ralph Swansen · · Boulder CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 761

Some people need to stick to REI. Oh wait, you can't get a custom, artisanal cam from REI.

windexxx · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 30
Brendan Blanchard wrote:Sounds like there would have been zero issue if the OP got what he was (not unsurprisingly) expecting, or at least had some correspondence when he was dissatisfied. Those are two pretty basic requests, which he made pretty timidly in his first post, warning others who might go in (not unsurprisingly!) expecting similar things.
The transaction was for a piece of gear.

Your expectations about communication are not part of the deal.

Thank you OP, for helping people new to the custom realm adjust their expectations and move them closer to reality.
Brian Boyd · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 4,418

Hey Matt -- sorry you're unhappy. My $0.02:

I have two nines and a twelve. All of varying vintages; one 9 and the 12 are toothed, and the other 9 is smooth. I've seen a mix of lobes on other racks as well. I've always believed the 'cosmetic teeth' rationale, so I didn't think much of it on my cams.

After a lot of use, my lobes don't look at that different from yours. In fact, most of my cams have a fair amount of bite marks on them.

It is a long time to wait. I was expecting that, though, from others that had bought VGs previously. Wait time was longer on the 12, as Tom said there is not much demand for them.

IMO, the quality control comparisons to Aliens are unfair -- never seen a VG with improperly drilled heads, for example. I've fallen and hung on mine a bunch, but never had cables go wonky. On the other hand, I've had to do some cable replacement on my larger camalots. I've just assumed that cables on big cams are more likely to get snagged given their sheer size.

Big Bros are a lot easier to rack, and I love the satisfying 'whhhhmp' when you press the button. Many times, they are a good alternative to VGs.

For me, the bottom line was that VGs aren't pretty, and you do wait a long time for them. But, I've always been very thankful to have them on my rack.

Starting up Banana Crack

johnnyrig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 105

Geez man, I dunno. Almost looks striated like a Totem cam. Weird.
I'd be interested in the manufacturer's input on this.
Can you post a pic of the deformed wire? I'm really curious to see that. You say it's deformed; but I'm skeptical. Could be a microfracture.

Matt Thomas · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 325

After creating this thread, I received the following response from Tom:

"I'm sorry I didn't get back to you earlier.

First of all, the deformation and bending of the cable loop, after being moderately loaded, is normal. If you look at my website, under Cam History, there is a photo of a tested VG9 that has the same bending after holding more than 5500 lbs of force (the failure mode is the lobes bending sideways, not the cable breaking). So, there is nothing to be alarmed about. Part of the issue is the cable I use has relatively thick wires, compared to some other cams, which is necessary for the cable legs to be stiff enough to not buckle when the trigger is pulled. The more flexible wire used by other cam companies tends to spring back after taking a fall. But, I can't use that flexible cable because the VG springs need to be strong enough to support the heavy lobes.

The difference between your cam lobes, and your friends is due to the way they were produced. Your friend's cam lobes were put through a tumbling process with sand, which smoothed off the edges, and left a sandpaper-like finish on the lobes. This was a real issue with the VG12, because it increased the friction against the cam spacer disk, and made the cam hard to use, and made the lobes "sticky". That sandpaper surface also ground away at the spacer disk, leaving aluminum grit which made the situation even worse. I decided to stop tumbling the parts, so that the metal was smooth, had less friction, and wouldn't grind away at the disk. Even though the VG9 didn't have the problem to the same extent, I just stopped tumbling the lobes altogether.

The corners of your cam look rougher than normal. I have had some people helping me in the shop, and I must have not noticed how rough those edges were. If you really find them objectionable, I would suggest getting some coarse sandpaper, and smoothing them off until they seem OK to you. You can also send the cam back to me, and I can smooth off the corners. But, it would probably take more time, and cost more, to send the cam to me. It should only take a few minutes to sand those corners down a bit.

If you want to send the cam back, you can send it here:"

This is the response I was looking for in November. At this point I consider the matter closed.

Jason Kim · · Encinitas, CA · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 255

Glad to see that he addressed your concerns (finally). The internet and social media have given some power back to the little guy, which overall, is a good thing.

The people who are calling you a whiner will now shovel praise onto Tom for addressing your concerns and undoubtedly use his reply as evidence that he cares about his product, his customers, and that you unfairly got your panties in a bunch.

Which is ridiculous, of course. Like Tom, I fabricate and sell custom-made products and do so in my spare time, mostly because I enjoy it and my customers have few other options to purchase said products (in my case, custom acrylic aquarium products - I also own and run a fab shop and produce aquarium filters).

It isn't acceptable to accept someone's money for a product and then go into radio silence for 6 months. 6 weeks? Okay. But half a year? That is months beyond a reasonable length of time. Has nothing to do with the type of product, the cost, or the reasons why Tom chooses to continue building and selling the VG's. That is crazy.

One final thought.. I, too, have a busy life with 2 young kids and I try to climb and travel as much as possible. I have been guilty of doing the same as Tom, and I've gotten called out on the forums of my particular hobby, because of it. And I had to eat my humble pie and apologize, because I was acting like an irresponsible dick.

As soon as someone accepts money for a product, they assume some liability to maintain a reasonable level of communication. End of story.

I should add... had I been in your shoes, I would have simply taken a file to the edges and smoothed them off, and be done with it. I don't particularly like it when people call others out internet forums, but I understand why you did it.

nutstory · · Ajaccio, Corsica, FR · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 15
Billcoe · · Pacific Northwet · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 930

^^ and THAT, my friends, is as close to a happy finish as you will see on this web site.

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 430

Fuck that whinging.

Anyone with a man card for 9-12" cracks knew they were fine to begin with. "Boo-hoo my cable bent..." Really?

He-man Wyde Card for OP revoked lol.

:P

Go get stuffed. In a wide crack. :)

"Very strenuous, you first Royal."

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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