Gym route setting??
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The gym/real rock thread highlights some of the difficulties in creating routes, especially if you are trying to include moves applicable to outdoor climbing. |
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I don't do any route-setting, but I much enjoy experiencing good results (and noticing less-good) results on Top-Rope. So I'll offer some ideas that other more knowledgeable people can shoot down.
Ken P.S. Travel ... So far I'm unimpressed with the Top-Rope route-setting for easy + moderate difficulty around Salt Lake City (and Las Vegas). That's why I suggest focusing your learning on Bouldering. Perhaps if you can sample some of the best big-city gyms in California or Seattle, some of them might have good Top-Rope setting. Or if you can all the way over to the NY metro area ... |
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^^^ This. |
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Some of my favorites are lie backing with high feet, forced bump ups (on arêtes is great), big deadpoints, dynos, paddle dynos, rose moves with big, exposed barn doors. I've done some problem setting for my local gym and have learned a bit. |
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I'll echo what has been put forth here as a former route-setter.... you will never emulate real rock with plastic, nor is that the point of indoor setting. Setting's primary focus is to force certain beta, from the bottom up, and to create sequences that are cryptic yet flow well put together. |
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A route that we have at our gym that is really cool is a corner route that involves stemming a couple of dropped knees that goes at 5.8. There is also a auto-belay setup with some bouldery jugs but you have to be more dynamic to reach them. It goes at 5.9. I know that really doesn't help, but as a beginner climber I really enjoyed the stemming. |
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I disagree with indoor setting being unable to emulate outdoor rock climbing. But! Real rock will always hurt more than plastic! Getting arêtes involved for toe/heel hooks and side pulls, stemming up dihedrals, low angle slab with bad slopers and reachy holds that strain the lats, roof routes with blind, exposed reaches. I've seen some great route setting in not-so-climby areas in the Midwest, with old school ratings that will humble the strong. Don't be intimidated by meeting expectations while making your art. My first boulder problem wasn't interesting or colorful at all lol! Even after pondering on special obstacles and particular movement at a particular grade at a particular angle, I walk in there looking at what holds are available, and the spaces that are available on the wall, worrying about invading another setter's space. It can be tricky! I would spend more time on one problem than the time it took for other setters to finish and forerun two problems! One may think "just how unique and fun and athletically- pleasing could my problems be, when countless problems or routes have gone up in the past decades?" Hey, someone's gotta do it! |
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Paul Hutton wrote:I disagree with indoor setting being unable to emulate outdoor rock climbing."unable" ... I say ... Unable at the easy - moderate difficulty grades, because outdoor rock climbing at those levels is mainly about footwork ... where and how to place your foot on some slopy slabby patch of rock that has no distinct holds at all. The usual advice to beginners on outdoor rock is, "Find the most likely non-hold you can, then commit to that and trust it to stand up in balance." Unless the setter can work with some very special expensive structure / surface, there's no way to imitate that puzzle / situation indoors. That's why lots of preparation indoors can only gain little for easing the transition to outdoor rock. Setters who think they can improve that are just kidding (somebody). Even experienced outdoor climbers who then spend all winter climbing indoors (at good gyms) often have embarrassingly bad footwork their first day out in springtime. Ken P.S. Related problem is that most outdoor rock at easy+moderate grades is less than vertical, but most indoor walls are at least vertical or overhanging, for injury/insurance reasons. |
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kenr wrote: "unable" ... I say ... Unable at the easy - moderate difficulty grades, because outdoor rock climbing at those levels is mainly about footwork ... where and how to place your foot on some slopy slabby patch of rock that has no distinct holds at all. The usual advice to beginners on outdoor rock is, "Find the most likely non-hold you can, then commit to that and trust it to stand up in balance." Unless the setter can work with some very special expensive structure / surface, there's no way to imitate that puzzle / situation indoors. That's why lots of preparation indoors can only gain little for easing the transition to outdoor rock. Setters who think they can improve that are just kidding (somebody). Even experienced outdoor climbers who then spend all winter climbing indoors (at good gyms) often have embarrassingly bad footwork their first day out in springtime. Ken P.S. Related problem is that most outdoor rock at easy+moderate grades is less than vertical, but most indoor walls are at least vertical or overhanging, for injury/insurance reasons.Kenr, all, I have yet to encounter any nonvertical climbing, short of boulders low enough I can sit on them! Lol! So, yeah, that's what I'm thinking for my climbers, too, and our gym is all vertical, too. I should probably make it clear, I am a volunteer at our local university gym rec center, so brand new climbers are there pretty often, and they do have outdoor trips to our local climbing (that columnar basalt in my photo), so they have no easy beginner slab climbs, either, although we do have some 5.6 out there. That's why I was asking for vids of fun movement on verticals, for beginners. Classes, traveling all over the country, none of that is going to happen, but thanks, anyway, I know it was meant well. Paul, sorta silly we haven't crossed paths! Or, if you've ever seen a very short ancient old lady in a big gun harness, then we have! Best, H. |
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Here's a vid to watch Helen, of a woman with very nice technique. Its a couple of routes set for a comp of some kind and if you study it you will see the principles of forcing the climbers into reading the sections and doing it one way, or heavily penalizing the climber if they get out of sequence. |
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Old lady H wrote: Kenr, all, I have yet to encounter any nonvertical climbing, short of boulders low enough I can sit on them! Lol! So, yeah, that's what I'm thinking for my climbers, too, and our gym is all vertical, too. I should probably make it clear, I am a volunteer at our local university gym rec center, so brand new climbers are there pretty often, and they do have outdoor trips to our local climbing (that columnar basalt in my photo), so they have no easy beginner slab climbs, either, although we do have some 5.6 out there. That's why I was asking for vids of fun movement on verticals, for beginners. Classes, traveling all over the country, none of that is going to happen, but thanks, anyway, I know it was meant well. Paul, sorta silly we haven't crossed paths! Or, if you've ever seen a very short ancient old lady in a big gun harness, then we have! Best, H.Ha yea really. I'm at Urban Ascent all the time when I'm in Boise, and frequently going to the black cliffs when the weather is decent. |
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King Tut wrote:Here's a vid to watch Helen, of a woman with very nice technique. Its a couple of routes set for a comp of some kind and if you study it you will see the principles of forcing the climbers into reading the sections and doing it one way, or heavily penalizing the climber if they get out of sequence. The idea here as a course setter, regardless of difficulty, is that you can direct people in just this way to build their technique, ability to read a sequence as well as fitness. Just use bigger holds for beginners (these are probably at least 5.12) and mellow out the feet a bit (not quite so high-steppy or heel-hooky). youtube.com/watch?v=dEzTMwX… And once you start watching climbing vids on youtube they will know your preferences and start feeding you all kinds of vids on climbing to watch.Thanks! I confess I don't know the rules for comps, but she did make great use of the wall. And, I also noticed she chose some of those high heel hooks over using some lower holds. I'll be back at the setting soon, so we'll see how it goes. Best, Helen |
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Surprisingly good strategy is to no route set at all. Just screw in as much as possible holds of different sizes and shapes. Something like a HUGE system board. |
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King Tut wrote:Here's a vid to watch Helen, of a woman with very nice technique.Those routes look about 5.10 to me. |
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Old lady H wrote:I have yet to encounter any nonvertical climbing [outdoors]OK - but outdoors even on vertical routes, usually footwork is the critical success factor (along with some finger strength). Without expensive special surface features, you're just not going to teach footwork indoors -- so there's always going to be a shock factor when start climbing outdoors. Finger strength can be gained on routes that have little resemblance to outdoor routes. So I'd suggest focus most of your attention on learning to create routes that are interesting. One other strategy: Get other people involved in the routesetting and learn from each other. That way you see different styles of "interesting". Perhaps the best skill of all is to be able to recruit promising setters, foster an environment in which they learn from each other, and recognize which ones are really talented. Ken |
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Mark E Dixon wrote: Those routes look about 5.10 to me.Looking Jain Kim up on her wiki page her hardest red point is 5.14c...so someone climbing that hard can make 5.12 look pretty easy. This first route is a qualifier for an Asian lead climbing comp and probably pretty hard. Jain Kim for a period a few years ago was one of the top woman sport climbers in the world and won the lead climbing world cup 3 or 4 times. TBH of course I don't know for sure how hard the route is but the beauty of plastic is that I could set nearly that exact movement with far bigger holds and have it be 5.8 on a vertical wall, or 5.7 with a few extra foot holds or 5.6 on a slab. That is one of the concepts I am trying to share with Helen. Route setting draws from a knowledge of a catalog of standard moves, then you just vary the size/type of holds/angle of wall to adjust difficulty. At it's most challenging you can also add in sucker sequences that are doable at a grade or two harder to penalize poor reading and introduce a pump that will hurt the climber later at a real mandatory crux. |