Has two opposed draws on an anchor ever come unclipped?

The other day I saw a girl arguing against the use of two opposed draws on the anchor for TR, citing that the rope could come unclipped. She offered one locking draw and one non-locking as an alternative. They looked to me and asked if I've ever heard of the rope popping out of two draws, and I said I have not.

Has anyone actually seen or heard of a rope popping out of two opposite draws while TRing?

Never seen nor heard of it.

I think someone on rc.com might have concocted a scenario in which it could happen, of course far-fetched. Most folks, including me, are comfortable with opposed non-locking biners (I climbed many years without every carrying a locking biner), but if the young woman wants a locker for one of them, no problem, right?

rgold wrote: (I climbed many years without every carrying a locking biner)

What did you use on your belay device?

No and hip belays - tens of thousands of goes between the dozen of us and no one was ever dropped (when leading the leader side of rope first went through a non-locking biner on the harness).

Can we take one more step - has anyone experienced single draw unclipping in top roping setup?

20 kN wrote:The other day I saw a girl arguing against the use of two opposed draws on the anchor for TR, citing that the rope could come unclipped. She offered one locking draw and one non-locking as an alternative. They looked to me and asked if I've ever heard of the rope popping out of two draws, and I said I have not. Has anyone actually seen or heard of a rope popping out of two opposite draws while TRing?

Ha, I see where you are going with this slightly misogynistic post. ;)

One of my best scores of booty ever was at the City of Rocks where a previous climber had bailed off of a huge cowbell, attached to this giant and well placed cowbell was 4 small locking biners hanging on the one piece of cord. I still use these lockers to this day, I left the cowbell behind.

Never heard of two unclipping but I have heard of one "cold shut" or fixed lowering biner becomeing unclipped (not sure the most used term for that). Essentially if the rope is twisted around itself while lowering and cleaning the route and then the climber being lowered unweights the rope to try a move or undo a draw etc. the twist can lift up over the gate of the lone biner/shut. Then when the climber reweights the rope its pops through the gate unclipping completely. Does that make sense? I'm not sure how common an incident it is but I've heard about it happening in Spain (where TRing on a lone fixed biner is too common).

Jake is an admin now? oh how the times have changed... Grigri is still going strong bro!

I'd probably argue that you should use two opposed lockers (especially if I was talking to someone who I felt was inexperienced, or if I myself was) for a TR setup that was out of sight and you were going to use all day.

I'll also use two opposed draws if we're 1) sport climbing 2) there's quick-clips/rams-horns and 3) the second isn't leading just cleaning or I otherwise feel the persons I'm with are inexperienced.... otherwise I'd throw one or two lockers in... but i also don't have a full set of QD's, so I'm sport climbing with half a rack of alpine's so its a lot easier for me to say "oh i'll throw a locker in".

I think outside the realm of sport climbing its just stupid to not use them, (no offense (for all interpreters of new mp values)), why wouldn't you just throw a locker into the setup

matt c. wrote: What did you use on your belay device?

I dunno what RGold used but I used two ovals O&O on my Sticht plate and ATC.

I never use lockers for the master point at least in a TR set-up if I can help it. One time I got to the anchor on a TR and both opp & opp oval screwgates at the master point had unscrewed each other. The rope had completely come out of one and was resting in the nose of the other with the gate clipped onto the rope. Good thing it was a 5.6 I've led a bunch of times.

So I only use oval non-lockers in a TR set-up. The screw gates are just one more thing to get in the way and get snagged on imo.

Anyway, it was probably a complete fluke or some hiker had been messing with our anchor at the top of the crag. Do what makes you comfy. Opp & opp screwgates no longer make me comfy.

20 kN wrote:Has anyone actually seen or heard of a rope popping out of two opposite draws while TRing?

Nope

amarius wrote:Can we take one more step - has anyone experienced single draw unclipping in top roping setup?

Negative

Tom Sherman wrote:Jake is an admin now?

For nearly two years

If I'm setting up a TR from the top of a cliff using static rope or webbing, I almost always using at least one locker, probably two. Old habit from BITD. Yet if I'm leaving a rope up on a bolt anchor for TRing after leading it, I've only ever used quickdraws with opposed non-locking gates. Never seen or heard of a problem with this setup.

I consider a pair of quick-draws (opposed appropriately) to be safe for a TR anchor. I've never heard of such an anchor coming unclipped. If I follow, or TR, a climb and find such as an anchor, I will feel safe.

If I am setting up a TR for a group of people (not just one other person to follow & clean, but several), I will prefer to use a pair of burly lockers opposite and opposed. I do this for two reasons -- if there is going to be multiple people on the route, I want the extra (perhaps over-safe) protection of the two locking carabiners -- with lots of climb/lower/thrash and possible off-angle that can happen, this makes me feel it is extra-safe for the people I'm setting this up for. Additionally, I would rather the wear be placed on a pair of thick locking biners, rather than the smaller/lighter carabiners on my quick-draws.

I've also been known to occasionally put two draws on a clip before a crux section while leading sport, just in case.

David Gibbs wrote: If I am setting up a TR for a group of people (not just one other person to follow & clean, but several), I will prefer to use a pair of burly lockers opposite and opposed. I do this for two reasons -- if there is going to be multiple people on the route, I want the extra (perhaps over-safe) protection of the two locking carabiners -- with lots of climb/lower/thrash and possible off-angle that can happen, this makes me feel it is extra-safe for the people I'm setting this up for. Additionally, I would rather the wear be placed on a pair of thick locking biners, rather than the smaller/lighter carabiners on my quick-draws. I've also been known to occasionally put two draws on a clip before a crux section while leading sport, just in case.

Similar here - if setting up TR for a single run up a sport route, two QDs. If setting up TR-gang session, I build a "proper" anchor - self equalizing quad with lockers - they are beefier, and, unlike quick draw carabiners that have rubber thingies at the rope side carabiner, are free to move on the rope, I deem screwgates provide extra layer of peace of mind.

I've had a quickdraw unclip from a bolt as I climbed past it on sport lead. It was one of those Petzl draws with the real thick, rigid, white dogbones. Top rope non lockers, never experienced or heard of it.

Anyone who says it will never happen is crazy. It can still come unclip just really rare. But than it is probably the same chance of the rope getting cut so if you are not using 2 different ropes but using locking biners you are still at the same chance of failure.

It is the same thing with people talking about having 2 points of failure yet they are climbing on a single rope.

NO! NEVER!

amarius wrote:Can we take one more step - has anyone experienced single draw unclipping in top roping setup?

I've had it happen twice in 25yrs of climbing. Both times following/cleaning a sport climb - where the final moves to the anchor came in straight from the side, rather than from below the anchor. In each case, during the traverse to the chains, the rope unclipped from only one of the non-locking draws. I believe it was the draw whose gate was facing me as I traversed in.

It's pretty rare, but making the final moves to the chains with only a single non-locking biner, on a single bolt between you and the deck does add a little spice to the finish. So if the finishing moves require a traverse in, I like to have a locker on one side and the gate of the non-locker facing away from the traverse.

-Guy's wife

matt c. wrote: What did you use on your belay device?

Hip belays don't need a locking carabiner. But even after I started using a belay device, the carabiner for it was the only locker I carried.

I usually ask if they put as much thought into checking their brake lines every time they drive their car, or petition the city/county for evidence that the traffic lights are working properly, or if they routinely check their shoelaces when walking close to the edge of a cliff. (not much different from when people ask if I freesolo and gasp when I say yes and I ask them if they rope up when walking up a sidewalk on a hill)

For some reason, the real risk of death in things not perceived as life threatening is not worth the time and mental effort to think about, but the minimal not-likely-to-happen-unless-you've-been-hit-by-lightning-twice risk of something within a sport perceive as life threatening is worth pages and pages and hours and hours of thought and mental effort.

I sometimes think it's all subconscious desire to not be perceived as "stupid" for the slightest possibility of being hurt doing something that people will judge you for after the fact (similar to getting cancer from smoking/dipping being one of the sicknesses that people will look at you sideways for having)

Last week after leading a pitch I clipped into two regular opposed draws to lower. As I was rigging, one draw unclipped itself. I don't think it would have happened once I had weighted it, I'm sure it was due to how I moved the rope, combined with very low gate tension of the carabiner. Still wasn't too psyched to see it happen.

"Can we take one more step - has anyone experienced single draw unclipping in top roping setup?"

Top rope setup? Don't know never used a single draw for a top rope? With two draw's? No. not a single one. I can see Lowering off old fixed draws can be a problem!

Lead climbing, Yes. Twice with me. Once the gate fluttered open and the biner broke. Very Long Fall. And Once we can't figure it out? Maybe I back clipped it?

Almost 30 years of climbing.