Rope pigtailing

n00b wrote: My Mammut came pre-flaked. I had to do nothing to uncoil it and I have never had any kinking or twisting problems. Mammut Infinity 70m 9.8mm OTOH, my Maxim rope was not pre-flaked. I carefully uncoiled it following directions, and it was mostly fine. A bit kinky at first, but straightened out after a couple of raps.

This is not the case anymore for mammut ropes. My roommate just got a mammut rope and it was not pre-flaked.

^^^. Likely due to the fact that mammut ropes are being made by a different rope manufacturer now.

Add: so I hear.

eli poss wrote: No, that person is wrong. Maxim is the only company that uses a normal coil. You will have to do the special uncoiling technique. The instructions that come with mammut ropes is not very good so just watch one of the numerous videos on youtube.

eli poss wrote: This is not the case anymore for mammut ropes. My roommate just got a mammut rope and it was not pre-flaked.

All the Mammut ropes that my local flagship Mountain Equipment Co-op store sell have this symbol (red symbol, bottom left-hand corner) on them, indicating that they are good to go, and no special uncoiling procedure is necessary.

Mammut ropes are good to go

I do not know how long Mammut has been doing this for - at least a few years...

Likewise, all of the current Petzl ropes (made by Edelrid, then shipped to Petzl where they undergo a "treatment" are put in a machine that coils them in a way that also makes them good to go,with no special uncoiling procedure is necessary. Petzl communicates this on their packaging.

Petzl ropes are good to go

Kurt G. wrote: im confused, I have a mammut rope so theres nothing I should need to do with it?

Do you still have the packaging that it came in?

If you do then is there that little red symbol that says "LAP COILED TANGLE FREE" on it?

Chances are you're twisting the rope 1/8 to 1/4 turn every time you take in rope through your belay device.

thanks for all the feedback.
I do try to switch up ends as often as I can when leading. I extend my gear as often as I can to reduce drag. I believe my rope came pre-flaked but I don't have the packaging anymore. I use a biner that came supplied from the manufacturer (climbing technology) with the belay device. I have done full raps with the rope and re-coil it after every use. I can usually get the kinks out when I coil it afterwards.
I guess I was more trying to figure out if im doing something wrong while climbing that's causing this.

Oh, the internet rumor mill...

Every Mammut rope available in a retail store right now was manufactured by Mammut in Switzerland.

In 2017 they will be manufactured with Mammut machines and materials, quality-controlled by Mammut, and made in the TB factory in the Czech Republic...

Come on, people, accuracy counts for something!

Yo man, quick fix, too:

You're belaying your second up to your stance. S/he arrives and the rope is "pig-tailed" as you describe. Clip a locking carabiner to the rope on the backside of your clove hitch (assuming you are cloved into the anchor via the rope) and clip it/lock it to your second's belay loop. S/he unties, lets the pigtails uncoil themselves, then ties back in, you double-check the tie in, remove the locker off the backside of your clove hitch and done! Easier, more comfortable, safer than tethering in with a sling or PAS, quick, no extra materials used, saved for the carabiner.

If you're swinging leads, s/he can simply stay on the backside of the clove until the new leader takes off....

A similar technique was profiled in Climbing a couple months back and this type of tool will be featured, and dozens of others, in "The Mountain Guide Manual," due out in March and to be published by FalconGuides. Check it out!

Kurt G. wrote:I have done full raps with the rope and re-coil it after every use.

Kurt - Can you describe the technique you use to re-coil your rope after use?

Bill

Bill Lawry wrote: Kurt - Can you describe the technique you use to re-coil your rope after use? Bill

I either wrap it over my shoulders or ill stack it in my rope tarp.

Thanks, Kurt.

Was wondering if you used something akin to a mountaineers cool. Sounds not.

I've watched this happen a fair number of times.

Basically, to avoid twisting, you need to limit the bends in the rope to only one plane. Imagine all your crabs aligned so the spines are against the rock, and the noses jutting straight out from the rock face. If the rope only goes through such an arrangement, you'll get no twists. But if you rotate one of those crabs so it's flat against the face, you'll get twists.

Likewise, thus, the friction teeth on atc-Xp are in line with the rope (in the same plane). Move them to the side and you cause twisting.

the time I noticed it the most was doing a traverse between routes for a link-up. im guessing I need to work on my extensions more to reduce rope drag to lower pigtailing.

Glen Prior wrote:Chances are you're twisting the rope 1/8 to 1/4 turn every time you take in rope through your belay device.

Based on your posts, I believe this is the most likely scenario.

In my experience, every "ready to use" pre-flaked ropes still have some subtle twists in them. I always reflake them for at least couple of times to avoid cluster-effs during climbing. I always end up effing up the factory butterfly anyway while taking out of the package.

Just an experiential update ... kinda lengthy ...

I was out climbing yesterday. We led and top-roped at one "crag" on my 70m rope, using our common belay devices - an ordinary ATC for me and an ATC Guide for my partner. And then we scrambled up to a tower for our last climb. The sequence and when we started seeing pigtail-ing ...

• First pitch: led with ATC guide belay; then belayed second from above with ATC on harness with no redirect through anchor. Ropes then tossed and both then rapped on same gear anchor down a second route / pitch; so far, if there had been twists, would have expected to see them accumulating down the rope ends while rapping - there were none.
• Second pitch: the first top-rope climbed with belay from below on ATC Guide; rope action was very smooth; the second then climbed with belay from above on ATC on harness with no redirect. Ropes were then tossed and both rapped on same gear anchor down a third route / pitch (slab is like a giant cone about 30 meters tall); once again, if there had been twists, would have expected them to accumulate down the rope ends while rapping - there were none.
• Third pitch: first climbed with belay from below on ATC; second climbed with belay from above with ATC guide on harness and rope re-directed through anchor; coiled rope at top for short hike to fourth climb; did not notice any pigtail-ing during coiling - it could be that coiling is not quite as telling about pigtails as rapping.

In general, I think the above indicates that the rap/belay devices themselves were not introducing pigtails.

• Fourth pitch: led on ATC Guide belay; route goes straight up about 15 meters to clip of last bolt with extended single-length sling, then traverses leftward and up about another 5 meters to a bolted anchor facing about 60 degrees away from face of climb; leader then lowered off the anchor bolts on a double-length sling knotted off in direction of lowering.

As the rope was pulled through for the second to follow on top-rope, significant numbers of pigtails developed on the second's end. Note that the rope-side biner at the last draw was probably against the rock as the leader was lowered as well as when the excess rope was pulled through. Likely, the same condition existed at the top anchor.

My intuition is that the rope-side biner(s) on the last bolt and/or at the anchor was/were held out of how they would naturally orient to the rope action either during lower and / or when pulling through the excess rope. I suspect this "un-natural" biner orientation caused the rope to slightly spiral through a rope-side biner(s) which promoted twisting.

Edit to add: I am less suspicious of it being the lowering that introduced the pigtails because we did not notice any pigtail-ing during lowering. This leads me to think that a loaded belay device while lowering prevents/minimizes the ability of twists to pass through to the free end of the rope.

Anyone touch on this? As belayer or rappeller, you can feel the rope twist in your break-hand. Resist those twists and stuff right into your device.

One of my climbing partners has a way of introducing twists in the rope when he belays. We went out recently so I could get a belay and finish a (three-year!) project before the first snow (send!). We used a rope he’d never touched before. I’ve used the rope many times, and on that particular route, and never had any twists. I took three burns to send the route and we had twists after the first burn. He uses an ordinary ATC (not Guide). Does the same to gym ropes.

Whatever is happening, it’s user error.

If you can feel the rope beginning to twist, consciously twist it slightly the other way as you pull in slack, or switch belay hands and see what happens. I was putting lots of twist in the rope when I started, until I became aware of this slight , yet cumulative twisting.

thanks for the in-depth Bill.
it sounds like its a combination of wandering routes coupled with my lack of attention to rope twisting in my brake hand.
thanks for all the feedback, ill do my best to be more aware on my next outing