The deadly ATC

I'm a big fan of Edelrid Jul 2 for lead belaying. I've seen two indoor full on (50ft) decks in the last year. Fortunately both climbers were okay. One with a GriGri and one with an ATC.

IMHO for belay devices.

ATC: No passive locking. In an ideal world, this would be sufficient but we've all seen situations where the belayer has let go of the brake hand. I saw this couple leading indoors and he out weighed her by many pounds. When he fell, she got pulled up to the first draw and completely let go of the device. Fortunately, she was using an GriGri and it locked.

GriGri: All motions are downward and can lead to confusion.
1. Holding the cam down for slack.
2. Lowering with the brake lever.
3. Catching a fall.

Passive locking (Jul, Mammut Smart, etc): Simple like the ATC but with passive locking.
Push up for slack
Pull down for catch.
Lowering not as smooth as ATC/GriGri

The Jul isn't great when lowering on beat up gym top ropes. I still use an ATC for that.

The Mega Jul is literately the worst belay device I've ever used, and I've been able to at least try most of the devices out there. It's okay for lead belaying on a single, thin rope, but for everything else it sucks beyond belief. Pretty much any of the other assisted devices are a much better bet.

Fools will outsmart any 'foolproof' device. The best answer is to not climb with fools belaying you.

A belayers primary instinct even in times of stress and surprise should be to hold the brake strand locked off. If it isn't they clearly are not treating belaying with the respect it deserves.

Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote:^ +1 edlerid mega jul. I feel much safer when I'm leading and my belayer has this device. Belayer could be unconscious and I would still be safe. Also, cost only $30-35 and super light weight.

Ehhhh... maybe. My regular partner uses the MegaJul and Jul 2, and if I do a yank test when her hand isn't on the rope, the rope often sails right through with no resistance.

I just put on my harness and grabbed my gym rope (a Trango 9.9) for a few quick yank tests with no tension on the brake strand:
Grigri 1 (not even rated for this rope!): locks every time
Grigri 2: locks every time
Mad Rock Lifeguard (Grigri copy): locks every time
Mammut Smart (I honestly hate this thing): locks every time
MegaJul: fails to lock about 60% of the time
Jul 2: fails to lock about 40% of the time

I don't feel unsafe being belayed with these devices, but they're not 100% in the unconscious/dead/irresponsible belayer case.

my gym doesn't even allow Gri gris...because they feel it leads to a false sense of security. For light belayers/heavier climbers, they have bolted anchors which they encourage you to lock into. So the belayer doesn't go for a swing into the wall.

Though reading some of these threads, a gri gri seems a good choice for outdoors as just an extra layer of precaution if the belayer is momentarily distracted. But it still seems an attentive belayer is the safest?

Nyte Knight wrote:my gym doesn't even allow Gri gris...because they feel it leads to a false sense of security. For light belayers/heavier climbers, they have bolted anchors which they encourage you to lock into. So the belayer doesn't go for a swing into the wall. Though reading some of these threads, a gri gri seems a good choice for outdoors as just an extra layer of precaution if the belayer is momentarily distracted. But it still seems an attentive belayer is the safest?

I've climbed at a gym where you're required to use a GriGri because they dont trust the ATC. Like usual, people are blaming the device instead of focusing on the real problem. If your gym doesent think people can belay safely with the GriGri, they should take a look at their own staff who are supposedly qualifying people as safe after they pass their belay test. As has been said a million times, it's the person not the device.

Full disclosure - I prefer ATC to grigri. That said, the logic here seems to be that if belayer is knocked unconscious, I am safe because the grigri will auto-lock? But does not that also mean I cannot move in any direction that requires more rope? How am I safer, especially on lead, if I am now stuck in one location or am I missing something here?

Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.

Paul Deger wrote: But does not that also mean I cannot move in any direction that requires more rope? How am I safer, especially on lead, if I am now stuck in one location or am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing something. You are not stuck.

If you are above a bolt or piece, you can move down (downclimb). If you have fallen below a bolt, you can move up.

FrankPS wrote: Yes, you are missing something. You are not stuck. If you are above a bolt or piece, you can move down (downclimb). If you have fallen below a bolt, you can move up.

And then when you get to the bolt or piece you can fix the rope to it and rappel back to your partner. Even if you were stuck, in most cases, that seems far preferable to being dead, no?

rgold wrote:Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.

Conscious but not fully sentient.

FrankPS wrote: Yes, you are missing something. You are not stuck. If you are above a bolt or piece, you can move down (downclimb). If you have fallen below a bolt, you can move up.

Good points - and I suspect there are times when moving up past last bolt or lateral could be the safer choice. In the end, I agree it is how the belayer uses a device and not the device that makes me safe most of the time compared to the rarity that a belayer becomes incapacitated.

Just stumbled across this old thread: mountainproject.com/v/anoth…

I've graduated from the hip belay through the Sticht plate to the DMM Pivot and am most comfortable with the latter. Generally, I would prefer the belayer use whatever device with which he or she is most comfortable and competent: GriGri-type or ATC-type. Competency is key. However, once the Wild Country REVO comes out sometime this next year, I might very well get one of those things, too, for certain circumstances. Seems like it has some very positive attributes (although someone will surely still figure out a way to drop a climber with it).

rgold wrote:Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.

Ha! Love it!

dino74 wrote: I've seen two indoor full on (50ft) decks in the last year. Fortunately both climbers were okay. One with a GriGri and one with an ATC.

Can you describe how someone decked with GriGri? And how with the ATC?

dino74 wrote: I saw this couple leading indoors and he out weighed her by many pounds. When he fell, she got pulled up to the first draw and completely let go of the device. Fortunately, she was using an GriGri and it locked.

This anecdote make a strong argument for the GriGri.

JohnnyG wrote: Can you describe how someone decked with GriGri? And how with the ATC? This anecdote make a strong argument for the GriGri.

It makes a stronger case for having a ground anchor when belaying a substantially heavier climber.

I once insisted that someone use a Grigri when they weren't familiar with it. The belayer held his thumb over the lever too hard and dropped me a significant distance to the ground. Lessoned learned, don't force a grigri on someone who is used to belaying with an atc. Now I say 'use whatever you are most comfortable with."

Kevin DB wrote:I once insisted that someone use a Grigri when they weren't familiar with it. The belayer held his thumb over the lever too hard and dropped me a significant distance to the ground. Lessoned learned, don't force a grigri on someone who is used to belaying with an atc. Now I say 'use whatever you are most comfortable with."

climbing friend,

get someone who they are knowing what it is they are doing, and has experience and belays with the holy grigri, and you will not be decking like with most deadly ATC.

For obvious it is quite foolish to give someone with no idea what they are doing or little experience a device and expect it to solve your decking problems.

I'll just leave this here - the most relevant quotes in this thread.

patto wrote:Fools will outsmart any 'foolproof' device. The best answer is to not climb with fools belaying you...

rgold wrote:Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.

Aleks wrote: get someone who they are knowing what it is they are doing, and has experience and belays with the Holy grigri... for obvious it is quite foolish to give someone with no idea what they are doing or little experience a device and expect it to solve your decking problems.

Expanded; all of the devices work as intended, and all that use them should have a very good understanding of said device's features, functions, and possible attributes to failure.

You are only human, and humans are prone to mistakes... not the device, unless not inspected for potential cracks, wear, etc., or unknown manufacturing defects. Damn, humans again!

Edit to add:
Excuse me, Aleks, but a small change was needed in your quote, in bold. Pray things go well.

Aleks, do you have any experience with the СУ «ФЕДЯ-ДУБЛЬ» складной стандартный

Someone posted a GEAR4ROCKS question and and I found what appears to be a high quality, all steel double grigri! Russian Gri Gri?