60' Ground fall belayer drop

It really ain't inspiring to have a belayer who wants to "break" when you need a "brake"!

(Just giving you a hard time.)

Doug Hemken wrote:It really ain't inspiring to have a belayer who wants to "break" when you need a "brake"! (Just giving you a hard time.)

Maybe Ted has his hand on his "safety break". I've had a few belayers take a safety break while belaying me over the years. As long as they save some for me when I get back down it's all good.

I believe my belayer was on a quick break in this photo:

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Haha. Good catch ;).

Chris, that's great! Photos from multiple photographers?

Doug Hemken wrote:Chris, that's great! Photos from multiple photographers?

Hah. Yeah it's 6 photos stitched together. So Jay gets a pass on looking super distracted. He probably wasn't belaying at that time regardless.

"If your belayer is knocked out by rock fall while using a tube-style belay device, you are off belay. If they're using an assisted-braking device, though they are not designed to be used hands-free, it may still lock up and hold the rope."

Look at these two sentences from the original article, particularly the implied reasoning behind the second. The author is essentially claiming that:

Unconscious belayer + tube-style device = climber off belay.

Unconscious belayer + GriGri = climber not completely off belay, because the device might perform the function of the belayer and catch the climber on its own.

The second assertion is deeply problematic and very dangerous. A climber whose belayer is unconscious/distracted/letting go of the brake strand for any reason is off belay, regardless of the belay method. Honesty and good sense should compel everyone to recognize this fact. The author of the original article, whether he realizes it or not, is failing to do so and is hardly alone.

Lee Durbetaki wrote: A climber whose belayer is unconscious/distracted/letting go of the brake strand for any reason is off belay, regardless of the belay method. Honesty and good sense should compel everyone to recognize this fact. The author of the original article, whether he realizes it or not, is failing to do so and is hardly alone.

They may be "off-belay", but if they're on a grigri, they probably aren't going to die. I think some people are resistant to the idea that it's better to be on a grigri if your belayer is unexpectedly disabled, since it's drilled into all of our heads so much that it's not ever OK to let go of the brake strand, but these ideas aren't contradictory at all. Let's suppose the grigri fails 1/1000 of the time if the brake strand isn't held (I suspect this number is too high, but for the sake of argument...). This is obviously unacceptable in normal belaying, since many climbers fall more than 1000 times in their climbing career and will therefore almost certainly be dropped if 1/1000 falls results in being dropped. On the other hand, most people have an incapacitated belayer either 0 or 1 times during their climbing career. Given that, the grigri will mitigate almost all of the risk of being dropped by an unconscious partner over a climbing lifetime.

As someone (rgold?) pointed out, this risk is small compared with other sources of belay failure. I wonder if people are more keen to talk about unconscious belayers because it's uncomfortable to think about the possibility that you, or one of your friends might screw up and drop someone, whereas it's easy to talk about freak accidents that could happen to everyone, even if they're statistically less likely.

Yes, your semantics are correct, but...fall + unconscious belayer + tube/plate = dirt/death/maiming. Fall + unconscious belayer + gri = catch/initiate rescue/no death. Btw, in 25+ years I've been dropped 3 times. Twice very early on when girlfriend and then stranger lost control of brake hand on ATC, and then very recently when an old crusty wanted to try a gri at the gym (fell at 2nd bolt). The first two incidents I'd blame on hard falls & inexperience. The third one was on me, as I thought 'old crusty=experience=no problem.' Apparently he was using lever to feed slack. Again, on me for failing to instruct.

999 times out of a 1000 the 'unconscious' belayers you should be worried about are usually walking, talking and doing something other than belaying.

r m wrote: Not to pick on specifically you but...Is there any data to support that? (A bit of a google only revealed nothing very useful, there's the DAV 2012 study that found munter hitch belayers make the most mistakes, followed by ATCs. Though that's measuring belay mistakes, not actual drops. And a 2014 DAV 'publication' Fight the iceberg! Accidents at artificial climbing facilities. stating: ...around 70 percent of the accidents happen using the ATC, although only 60 percent of the climbers belay using the ATC (information of 2012). Though doesn't mention how the grigri compares.)

The DAV is not located in the United States. The markets in Europe are very different than in the USA. They use different belay devices than we do in some respects. In America everyone has a GriGri, more or less. When I was in Europe, I saw tons of people belaying with ATCs, figure eights, munters and other devices that are far less common than in the USA. Thus, it would be more accurate for our purpose to look at data that's specific to the USA.

I have to agree with Healyje that many climbers are dropped on the GriGri. "I got dropped on a GriGri" threads occur like clockwork on the net, on Facebook and everywhere else. Yet, this is the first ATC related issue I've seen in a while. In real life, I've witnessed five accidents with a GriGri and zero with an ATC (some close calls though). In the USA, I suspect that the GriGri is the leader in climbers getting dropped, not the ATC. It would be nice to know the answer if there is any research.

See, that's all anecdotal evidence, though. Grigri accidents are over reported because they're sensational - the "supposedly safe" device dropped a person. Also, as pointed out, more people use Grigris in the US, so obviously, there will be more accidents with that device. The question is: are there more accidents per capita?

Ted Pinson wrote: T, no I did not. In fact, I have no idea where you would possibly get that idea.

right here-

Ted Pinson wrote:So one thing that I've noticed the article assumes is that the outcome would have been different had the belayer been using an assisted device. My question is: is that even true? I've never tried to ";catch"; a lead fall on a Grigri without holding the break strand, but it seems like the outcome would likely be the same. They are ";assisted"; breaking devices, not ";auto"; breaking devices, and I'm doubtful, though curious, if a Grigri could actually catch a lead fall without a belayer. Hold a person's body weight on toprope? Absolutely. Edit: looks like some psychos at redriverclimbing actually tested it: redriverclimbing.com/viewto…

How could you not know? Do you pull back on the brake every time when someone falls? Do you grip tight the whole time? Personally I dont pull or grip tight so I know how much weight the device takes and that would be all of it every time.

Ted Pinson wrote:To review, I use a Grigri pretty much 90% of the time when belaying, predominately lead. The people I climb with don't generally take, so I've probably caught upwards of hundreds (if not thousands) of falls. What I have not ever done, nor ever plan to, is belay WITHOUT MY HAND ON THE BRAKE. My skepticism was directed at the Grigri's ability to catch every fall WITHOUT THE BELAYER'S HAND on the BRAKE. I posted a link from Redriverclimber where somebody tried catching a lead fall WITHOUT THEIR HAND ON THE BRAKE, and apparently it held, even though THEY DIDN'T HAVE THEIR HAND ON THE BRAKE. This was surprising, and reinforced my (already strong) faith in the inherent safety of using a Grigri FOR LEAD BELAYING, although I will continue to ALWAYS KEEP MY HAND ON THE BRAKE when LEAD BELAYING using GRIGRIs. I'm not sure how I can be any clearer...

Apparently it held, yeahh.... Honestly I call BS, you wouldnt wonder about it holding if you have this experience you say you do.

Ted Pinson wrote:Grigri accidents are over reported because they're sensational - the "supposedly safe" device dropped a person.

Ted, I would invite you to further reflect on this statement.

Healyje wrote:999 times out of a 1000 the 'unconscious' belayers you should be worried about are usually walking, talking and doing something other than belaying.

if the lottery odds were one in a thousand I'd play for sure.

It's well-understood that the GriGri will hold a fall without user intervention most of the time. We're well beyond disputing that idea--it's been proven many times. The problem here is that most of the time is the keyword. There are scenarios where it may not lock. For example, I use the GriGri 2 for TR rope solo when bolting routes. I've been using it for years without issue. However, for the first time ever last week the device failed to lock on a 9.9mm well used rope. I was on rap and I pulled myself onto the rock quickly to practice a clipping stance before drilling. Almost as soon as I got on the rock my foot slipped and I fell. There was almost no slack in the system, but the GriGri 2 failed to lock and I fell a few feet to my backup stopper knot.

I also recall an incident years ago when I was using the GriGri 2 to rap off the top of a cliff. I had momentary unweighted the device to reposition the rope, I slipped on some grass and fell on the GriGri 2 and it failed to fully lock. I only fell a foot or two before it fully locked, but there was still some slippage. There are other users who have reported experiences ranging from similar to far worse. In short, the device will lock most of the time, but on occasion it will not why is why you must maintain your hands on the rope at all times.

Lee Durbetaki wrote: Ted, I would invite you to further reflect on this statement.

Lee, I would invite you to further elaborate on this statement.

T Roper wrote: if the lottery odds were one in a thousand I'd play for sure.

How about 1:1000 Russian roulette?

" right here- How could you not know? Do you pull back on the brake every time when someone falls?"

Yes.

"Do you grip tight the whole time?"

Yes.

"Personally I dont pull or grip tight so I know how much weight the device takes and that would be all of it every time. Apparently it held, yeahh.... Honestly I call BS, you wouldnt wonder about it holding if you have this experience you say you do."

Well, I do, and I still wonder about it, so...there you go. I learned to belay using an ATC, so locking off the break is fairly instinctual. I treat a Grigri like an ATC, and never rely on the assisted breaking function to catch a fall, because...as pointed out, it does fail. I wonder if your attitude is the reason why there are so many Grigri accidents? Have you ever tried to grab a rope that was rapidly running through a device, such as an ATC or a Grigri where the cam failed to engage?

T Roper wrote:Personally I dont pull or grip tight so I know how much weight the device takes and that would be all of it every time.

This would be my experience as well.

Kyle Edmondson wrote: This would be my experience as well.

and many others who really use the device and dont spray about using it.