MP Forum Tone
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I, my colleagues, and many MP members are disturbed by the increasingly hostile and misogynist posts in the Mountain Project forum. We are going to take some steps to address this: |
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I think this is a good idea. It would be valuable for the community to have some community discussed guidelines for when posts cross the line from opinion to hurtful. Perhaps some examples. The worst possible outcome for this would be having forums overly censored. |
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Agreed, good idea. |
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Good idea. Its hard to read anything on these forums, let alone post anything, because it seems there is a lot of hateful people being "jerks" when there is no reason to be. |
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Really stoked to see this! Proactive moderation is key. Now about that new logo... |
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I'm all for this. Just wanted to voice my support. I've gotten a LOT of good beta out of MP over the years and am happy to try keep the place positive. |
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Old lady H wrote:Okay, I've got to say this. Women are capable of speaking for themselves. Duh. Women are capable of fighting their own battles. Duh, again. How does it serve "the Cause" for males to decide to speak for us, or fight our battles, or protect us from...whatever? That was what was disappointing in the locked thread recently. Understandable, but...it gave the appearance of the males being the protectors, in a sense speaking for her, whether she wanted that or not, and/or the lady being less than capable, or a prima dona, and I don't think any of that was true at all. So. Trick question. Sorta. There should not be a battle to be fought. But, don't force your unwanted help when I have not asked for it, or presume what I want, or presume to speak for me. Treat the "other" as you would wish to be treated. Duh. FWIW, I've had emails from both males and females, grateful for being treated as a fellow climber. It IS a community, after all, and a pretty good one, overall. Best, HelenWomen are fully capable of speaking up for themselves, of course. However, do you not also want men to speak up women? Old lady H wrote: How does it serve "the Cause" for males to decide to speak for us, or fight our battles, or protect us from...whatever?Obviously, we can't read anyone's mind. My feminist girlfriend told me that it's helpful when men speak out against sexism, and otherwise use whatever "privilege" we have to intervene when possible... Some of us want to be allies. If you do want allies, tell us what will help. |
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Dylan B. wrote: Sorry if I came across as condescending. I only wanted to make it clear that some women are refraining from participating in the community because of the hostility. Those women are, of course, capable of speaking for themselves and fighting their own battles, but are choosing not to because the environment is too hostile.The MP forums should, ideally, be a place to share information and sometimes have a little fun discussing our passion, climbing. I think many people, men and women, are put off by the hostility and general trollishness that seeps into a site that should be about something we love (climbing) and not a bunch of angry social commentary (there are lots of other places to go online if that's what you want) |
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Make Mountain Project great again. |
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It seems to me like those that participate in the trolling participate in the trolling and those participating in the discussion continue the discussion. |
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I came over back in the day from the old rockclimbing.com forums (are those even still a thing) because MP.com was in general a friendly and welcoming place, while RC.com was overrun with trolls and assholes. The dynamic here has certainly changed over the last few years. |
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All in favor of OLH being the MP Civility Warden? |
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Dave Schultz wrote:Called it a few weeks ago: mountainproject.com/v/oh-mo… I try and contribute good stuff, and the occasional smart ass comment. But otherwise, I still cannot wait to be in an area where I do not rely on mountain project to search for partners.Dave, your a cool dude. You are *not* part of the problem. It's literally 10 people with boring desk jobs posting the same stupid stuff all day that led to this topic. |
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Thank you, Nick. |
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Old lady H wrote: Sure, Kent. But not just women. If someone's making watermelon cracks, you speak up. Dehumanizing comments are not always gendered. Here's one that's very small, that shows how subtle assumptions can be: Check out almost any thread on here in the topic of "heavy climber, light belayer". Every single one I've ever seen is a well meaning male, asking for advice on how his dinky little female should be belaying him. Well meaning, but DUDE! Ask HER! She's the one who has to deal with it, and probably has far more experience, and maybe, just maybe, knows what she's doing. The totally outrageous stuff is very rare, and so egregious that it's not a day to day concern. Meaning, either you're in an abusive, dangerous relationship, or you're not. It doesn't just pop up. Rather, all those little hits get wearing. Another really subtle one: I'm a bike commuter, and often throw my bike on the rack on the bus. One day, some guy just walked over and grabbed my bike, just as I was reaching for it. I wasn't remotely in need of help, he just presumed. In this case, it is also exactly how to set up someone to be robbed. Just ask. Like someone said on some thread somewhere, if you wouldn't treat a guy that way, then...maybe hit the pause button? Best, Helen And, yet again, climbing is by far the most egalitarian group I've been associated with.I wish my boyfriend would ask questions on here about climbing. God forbid anything happen to me while we are climbing because he only knows how to climb, belay, and rappel. I spent a week trying to teach him to rap before his first multipitch but he was never interested. Fast-forward to when I had to explain it to him at the top and he spent 30 minutes descending inch-by-inch with a deathgrip on the rope. Sure ask her how she belays but both partners should be reading and learning to be better climbers/belayers. |
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Pretty sure I'm destined for a re-education camp |
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Old lady H wrote: Sure, Kent. But not just women. If someone's making watermelon cracks, you speak up. Dehumanizing comments are not always gendered.Well, yes. I'm doing my best to operate under this assumption, anyway. This doesn't answer my question, though... I interpreted your other post (the one that I quoted) as saying that you don't want men to speak up when they see sexism in play, because women are fully capable of speaking up for themselves and fighting their own battles. Assuming we're generally speaking out against dehumanizing comments outside of sexual discrimination, you also want us to speak out against sexism, right? It's confusing. Because, yes, women can speak up for themselves, but do they do so consistently? Or do they often step back and stop talking because a lot of men aren't really listening? Minorities can speak up for themselves against dehumanizing comments, too. But it appears to me that when they do their voices are often not heard, or they are further marginalized. |
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Old lady H wrote: Nah. Old folks home. When's that big ugly birthday? Mine is January. There's a bunch of us with that six o lurking!No, a van by the river with my sweetie. December. |
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Old lady H wrote:...That was what was disappointing in the locked thread recently. Understandable, but...it gave the appearance of the males being the protectors, in a sense speaking for her, whether she wanted that or not, and/or the lady being less than capable, or a prima dona, and I don't think any of that was true at all....Old lady H, you are a true asset to the forum. |
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Mark E Dixon wrote:Pretty sure I'm destined for a re-education campJust remember, when they say, "What year is it?" You say, "The year zero." |
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American PC sensitivity is getting old. There are offensive jerks in real life, it may suck but words dont hurt me, I learned that in grade 1. IMO going after someone personally is one thing, being an all around a-hole is another. If you start banning the a-holes they come back with 2 more accounts. I understand rules and thats cool, REI is most def. a PC sensitive company/co-op so whatever, its their rules. |