Bowline Variants

First off, if you want to talk about accidents attributed to knots coming undone or how much better you think an eight is, don't. The only thing I want to discuss is bowline variants. There are enough threads on those topics, but there are plenty of us who use a bowline to warrant it's discussion.

I've used what we call a paranoid bowline for a while now. Love it, except that it takes up two strands of rope at the tie in points.

Recently I started playing with the EBSB (end bound single bowline), and while it's secure I don't like the cleanliness of it. Info on it in here: igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic…

I took the EBSB and started with a double bowline for the initial bowline, and finished per the EBSB and this is what it looks like. I'm a fan. Does anyone else use this knot?

Why not just use the seatbelt?

Instructions for the EBSB can be found in the link. I can do something for the others this evening on my way to the new.

www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/Bowlines_Analysis.pdf

This has been covered, over and over again. Here are some of the more popular variants:

mountainproject.com/v/incid…

20 kN wrote:This has been covered, over and over again. Here are some of the more popular variants: mountainproject.com/v/incid…

You're correct, I forgot it had been covered so recently. I apologize. Delete this if you want

Don't delete!

The pics of you in your car tying knots are precious!

This is what I use to tie-in:

It's simple, secure, and easy/quick to tie. What more do you want?

keithconn wrote:Don't delete! The pics of you in your car tying knots are precious!

That's me sitting in my work truck killing time between inspections

A friend from Europe showed me how to tie a bowline on a bight retraced, and that is what I use, with a double fisherman's securing the tail.

What is funny is that I learned how little my partners actually pay attention when doing a buddy check. Everyone I climb with (except 1 guy) would look at my knot and proclaim it good to go. I would then have to inform then that they never really checked me, since I did not tie an 8 and that's what they expect to see. That 1 guy actually looked at my knot and told me he had no idea if I was tied in or not.

Wait for it...wait for it...

YER GUNNA DIE! ;p

Sorry, somebody had to say it.

Matt Himmelstein wrote:What is funny is that I learned how little my partners actually pay attention when doing a buddy check. Everyone I climb with (except 1 guy) would look at my knot and proclaim it good to go.

Yep, that's Wednesday at the local crag. I do the same. I use it as a noob test when climbing with someone new. I tie the bowline, hold it in plain sight and ask "Is my figure eight good?". Over half the people say yes... I then follow up and ask why they provided the incorrect answer. On several instances it was not a matter of paying attention. One climber admitted she lied about performing the check because she dident want to get caught looking at my crotch because her boyfriend gets jealous easy. Another said he noticed it looked funny, but figured I knew what I was doing so he dident say anything. Case in point, assume all climbers are unsafe until vetted otherwise.

The two strands of rope on your tie in point with the "paranoid" bowline should reduce wear on your tie in points I would think. It seems like another advantage of the knot to me. What advantage do you see with the double EBSB Sam?

20 kN wrote: Yep, that's Wednesday at the local crag. I do the same. I use it as a noob test when climbing with someone new. I tie the bowline, hold it in plain sight and ask "Is my figure eight good?". Over half the people say yes... I then follow up and ask why they provided the incorrect answer. On several instances it was not a matter of paying attention. One climber admitted she lied about performing the check because she dident want to get caught looking at my crotch because her boyfriend gets jealous easy. Another said he noticed it looked funny, but figured I knew what I was doing so he dident say anything. Case in point, assume all climbers are unsafe until vetted otherwise.

Which is why I'm amazed that there aren't actually more accidents than there are.

Nick Drake wrote:The two strands of rope on your tie in point with the "paranoid" bowline should reduce wear on your tie in points I would think. It seems like another advantage of the knot to me. What advantage do you see with the double EBSB Sam?

It just looks cleaner.

After playing with it this weekend, I'm sticking with my paranoid bowline. It's absolutely as bomb proof as any knot can be.

If I were a chemist, I'd suggest systematic names like "In, Single, Non-Yosemite, F1, Bight-0, 1-Ring bowline" - would sound cool in a belay check.

If the 6 parameters were independent, we would have 2x2x4x3x4x2 = 384 combinations (some of them known-dangerous).  Since the Bight-2 version has no possibility of Yosemite or other finish knots and no In-vs-Out distinction, the actual number of combinations is at most 292.  Removing the failed (incorrect) attempts at Yosemite Finish leaves 146, some of them still dangerous.

Most combinations are purely theoretical, but I'd guess 20-30 are common - most combinations of { In / Out } x { Single / Double } x { Non-Yosemite / Yosemite } x { F1 / F2} and a few variations of Bight-1 / Bight 2 and 2-Ring for specialized use.

EDIT: http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/59/Bowlines_Analysis.pdf has more variants.  It also says the version with the tail outside is better for ring-loading.

How about this as a variation, not sure what you might call it, but rather than a double loop, you do a clove hitch, more secure than the double bowline, leave a fair tail. Then finish with two tucks, first under the 'collar' and then through the bottom loop of the clove (if you put it through the entire clove hitch, the knot can be 'reworked' into a less stable form (it would still be a form of finished cloved bowline, just the finish isnt quite as resistant to becoming undone through cyclical loading, eg picture no 3). The tail needn't be pulled tight, and the 'loops' left make it easier to untie the tail, which then make the whole knot easy to untie, I think that would be a safe amount of tail (~3in) after the two finishing tucks, as it already takes several inches to complete the two finishing tucks. I think this is also just a nicer knot than the above.

(I chose to bring the tail 'up and over' for the first tuck rather than take it behind, as I feel this would cause slightly more grip of the bottom loop of the clove hitch on the 3 strands. If you move the rope behind, the 3 strands sit more in a line, rather than if you bring the tail in front, the 3 strands being caught in the loop form more of a triangular pattern (sorry if I didnt explain the great))

Sorry to rserect this thread, but I find the theory of knots fascinating, and agree, a common naming notation for bowline variants would be interesting, sadly the link from caves.org has expired :/. Never actually used this, I was just dicking about with variations on the bowline for fun, and this seems to be bomber.

Thoughts?
Cloved bowline

Cloved bowline with a double finishing tuck
2nd tuck through the entire clove hitch (incorrect)


Turns into (still secure? but definitely not as secure)

I've always called that first Bowline a "Bowline Follow Through". That's my go to knot for climbing.

I'll add, if I'm cleaning a route, I'll re-tie in with a figure 8 for lowering.

I also  use  the follow  thru bowline.  

I understood the follow through was a regular bowline with the tail traced all the way back (also secure?, as I dont think it would be as good with cyclical loading, but the knot is secure with just the first bowline, so ~2ft would have to slip before it became undone, and this would be obvious as the 2nd bowline would come undone, with the 1st bowline still there to bear the load)

Correct. Taught to me by an ocd  German  climbing  coach