Double figure 8 (Bunny Ears) for an anchor

I was reading this interview with Peter Croft and he talks about using the rope with the double 8 as his anchor in lieu of cordelette.

Just wondering if some people could fill in the gaps for me.

I'm guessing that your either belaying directly off your loop and redirecting through the shelf made by the ears OR just belaying directly off this shelf?

Also in looking at other images of the knot (before looking it up I was only really familiar with the two "ear" version) it seems like you can split out a third loop , which looks to me like it's the leftover tail loop from making initial two loops but just utilizing it as a loop rather than folding it back on itself to complete the two loop version. Is that correct? I practiced it on my anchor board but it seemed like even properly dressed there was a lot of play , which seemed if one of the pieces blew out the looseness would sort of "unfurl" the other loops.

John Wilder wrote:I use this knot extensively for anchoring on bolts. Yes, you use the shelf. I'll use it for gear as well if there are two bomber pieces and then I'll just clip the third to one of the first two directly rather than mucking about with using the three loop version (which I don't care for). I can't remember how to make the third loop offhand, but I do remember I'm not a fan as it feels less secure than the two loop.

Thanks John. I like the clipping of the idea of third piece rather than fiddling around with the 3 loop version . I went ahead and tried it with some thinner cord (thinner than I would ever wanna climb on haha) just to see if it would bind better once dressed it still feels pretty sloppy to me , again assuming I'm using the proper method to pull out that 3rd loop , thanks again for the input

So do you just clove hitch the free hanging strand to the third piece?

The double loop figure 8 is commonly used to equalize two anchor points. If the two loops are used together at a master point however, they are not redundant due to the configuration of the knot - AMGA Single Pitch Instructor Manual.

Is the AMGA guide saying that the knot is not redundant because if one of the loops were cut the knot could come untied?

This scenario seems very unlikely to me. Is there something else that I am missing?

Jayson Nissen wrote:Is the AMGA guide saying that the knot is not redundant because if one of the loops were cut the knot could come untied? This scenario seems very unlikely to me. Is there something else that I am missing?

Yes. There's a strand of rope in the knot that, if cut, compromises both of the loops. I consider this irrelevant the vast majority of the time for an attended anchor when I'm standing there belaying up my second or belaying my partner on the next lead and have eyes on the system the whole time.

I do think it's a potential concern if one uses the 2-loop eight for the master point of a top rope anchor which will be unattended for an extended period of time and subject to potentially significant abrasion through repeated use. There are better options in that case.

An option to the shelf is to tie an overhand on a bight just below the figure right knot and use that to belay from.
It is not redundant nor is the rope you led the pitch on.

Derek Doucet wrote: Yes. There's a strand of rope in the knot that, if cut, compromises

Same is true of the rope loop where you tied into your harness. Much ado about nothing.

John Wilder wrote:I use this knot extensively for anchoring on bolts.

What's the advantage of the double figure 8 over, say, clove hitching the rope to build an anchor or any other method of using the rope? For example, the method posted by RGold multiple times, or any method on UKC or multipitchclimbing.com?

Is it easier? More adjustable?

Wivanof said "Same is true of the rope loop where you tied into your harness. Much ado about nothing."

Agreed in the vast majority of situations. I use this knot tons. I was just replying to the question posed up thread about the reason for the often raised redundancy concern.

John Wilder wrote: Why muck about with any kind of system when you can tie one knot, clip to two carabiners and be done with it? It takes me all of 10 seconds to hang the carabiners, tie the knot, clip, and be off belay and my anchor is done to boot. Rgold's rope method is slick, but meant for three piece gear anchors that aren't right next to each bother like a pair of bolts are.

So the advantage for you is time? Do you adjust anything after tying the knot? Or do you get everything perfect in 10 seconds?

I usually clove 1st piece, loop, clove 2nd piece, clove my harness. Sometimes I make the loop long enough to tie a masterpoint. Most times I belay off my harness.

I use the double figure eight on big walls where the second is jugging and I am hauling. Otherwise, I've used this method for free climbs occasionally. To equalize a third or fourth piece, grab the strand running down to the second, pull it up and clove the third piece or tie a second double figure eight for a third and fourth piece. You can only belay off two pieces though, so chose the lower two.

Keep in mind this anchor is only suitable if you are swapping leads. If you intend to lead the next pitch, you're going to have to rebuild the anchor, or untie and switch ends.

John Wilder wrote: Generally no.

For what it's worth, that's exactly how Beth Rodden does it. Anyway, that's the method I use and it's always worked fine. Personal preference I would say.

ropelab.com.au/figure-of-8-…

canyoneeringusa.com/techtip…

John Wilder wrote: Chasing redundancy with the rope as your anchor material is not high on most climbers priority lists.

Fair enough. But the information is still worth sharing and considering.

John Wilder wrote: Why would you clove to your harness after cloving the bolts?

Because if I don't, the second bolt isn't doing much. See diagram 3 here: ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…

John Wilder wrote:Or make a master point? Both seem like a waste of rope.

I wrote: "Sometimes I make the loop long enough to tie a masterpoint. Most times I belay off my harness."

I normally lead multipitch on two ropes. "Sometimes" I have two followers. If so, I might belay both at the same time using an ATC-Guide at the masterpoint. (However, guide-mode is not usually my first choice)

In any case, I've got plenty of rope to "waste".

I have never used bunny ears on a cordallette to build an anchor. Do many people do this instead of using a quad?

I have only used bunny ears when multi-pitch climbing or when fixing ropes. In these situations it is easy for me to inspect the knot every time the rope is used so I am not worried about the rope wearing out.

It also seems unlikely to me that some event could happen that would only cut one strand of the rope, just on one ear of the knot and then a large enough force would be applied to the rope to pull that strand through the knot. I like the bunny ears because it is easy to adjust for uneven bolts or gear placements since the length of one ear determines the length of the other. I find that if I mess this up and make it so that all of the rope is hanging off of one loop and pull the knot good and tight, it does not self adjust. But I haven't looked at this closely.

This failure mode seems like something from a spy movie where the vilan puts peanut butter on one ear of the knot and then suspenseful music plays as Bond hangs from the line. Will it slip through? Dun dun dun...

wivanoff wrote: What's the advantage of the double figure 8 over, say, clove hitching the rope to build an anchor or any other method of using the rope? For example, the method posted by RGold multiple times, or any method on UKC or multipitchclimbing.com? Is it easier? More adjustable?

The advantage is that it provides a shelf for hanging the reverso off so you can use guide mode.

As far as quicker to adjust - it's slow to adjust and not easy to get the right length, so for complex arrangements of trad pieces, or the need for the belayer to hang or sit in a precise location it isn't as good as other methods.

Works great for two-bolt belays where the bolts are relatively close

t.farrell wrote: To make a triple fig 8, wrap the bight (which you normally flip over the knot) over the standing end and up through the loop that form your bunny ears. (You're essentially retracing half of the knot with the bight.) I've never seen anything about using the bight as a third loop in the way you described. I feel like it would only be problematic if it unclipped or if the rope was cut.

Yes that makes perfect since. I googled something like "double figure 8 anchor" before making a post just to see if an image popped up to clarify what it might look like rigged up and one of the images showed that 3rd loop and at a glance I assumed it was just the leftover bight and that it would secure in place once the knot was dressed/ cinched. But much like you said it is sloppy and clearly had potential for big problems.

Although I feel like that you'd have to be thoughtful with the initial bight because after forming the ears and lopping back around you sort of "steal" the length that would dump back into the 2 ear version.

Thanks for clearing that up though.

Two pages and nobody mentioned that the OP has an "anchor board". You guys disappoint me.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Two pages and nobody mentioned that the OP has an "anchor board". You guys disappoint me.

Probably wasn't worth mentioning. I can send you a picture of it if your into it though.

John Wilder wrote: Also, 20kn, wouldn't you belay off the higher pieces for comfort?

You could, but I typically tether in with a 3' leash, so the lower pieces are at the perfect height. Whatever works.