What do you think of this anchor setup?

Anchor Setup

Is this setup very safe for top rope? I seen some people using this the other day.

It was just some webbing with an overhand on a bight used to make a loop for a girth hitch on one end, and an overhand on a bight used to clip on a quick draw on the other end.

The trees were about 20 feet from the edge.

I like to have the biners sitting directly on the cliff edge so my military spec webbing doesn't get worn.

I wouldn't like the overhand on a bight (not sure about that knot for webbing), but otherwise looks fine.

It wouldn't be my first choice. That being said, you would probably be fine with this setup.

Not unsafe - I'd climb on it, but also not optimal (ie not what you'd want to learn as the 'right' way of doing things).

Major shortcomings:
- hard to adjust lengths of the two strands
- having the knots rubbing on the edge is not ideal
- a few extra points of failure (the draws could likely be replaced with 2 lockers directly on the slings).

For top-roping off trees I'd use a piece of static rope and a couple of lockers.

Go to Amazon, but a John Long or Craig Luebben book on how to Rock Climb and Build Climbing Anchors.

FrankPS wrote:I wouldn't like the overhand on a bight (not sure about that knot for webbing), but otherwise looks fine.

Overhand on a bight is one of the best knots for webbing. :)

ryancdcampbell wrote: Is this setup very safe for top rope? I seen some people using this the other day. It was just some webbing with an overhand on a bight used to make a loop for a girth hitch on one end, and an overhand on a bight used to clip on a quick draw on the other end. The trees were about 20 feet from the edge.

Ryan, what is YOUR opinion of this? That's what matters. Folks here can give you a huge amount of help, but you have to know at least enough to know what bugs you about the setup. Nice job doing a diagram, by the way.

No one asked the most obvious question: how bomber are the trees?

Old Lady H.

Ditto on the books. There's a pocket version of the anchor one you can take with you, for reference and practicing.

The only part of this that makes me REALLY nervous are the quickdraws. If they were used for sport climbing prior to this there could be burs which in turn could cut into the webbing and/or the rope. Not saying either of those will instantly cut in some kind of epic Cliffhanger-like scenario. But there could be some impact.

I'm not sure I would trust those trees. They appear to not have any branches which would make me think they are dead.

t.farrell wrote:I'm not sure I would trust those trees. They appear to not have any branches which would make me think they are dead.

Very good point.

Upon closer inspection of the so-called "trees," they may actually be cow's legs, without the hooves. I rarely use cow legs as an anchor.

FrankPS wrote: Very good point. Upon closer inspection of the so-called "trees," they may actually be cow's legs, without the hooves. I rarely use cow legs as an anchor.

Frank, I've often thought an amicable pachyderm could be an excellent anchor/belayer. No device needed.

Old lady H wrote: Frank, I've often thought an amicable pachyderm could be an excellent anchor/belayer. No device needed.

Just point of clarification: cows are ungulates, not pachyderms. "Pachyderm" is an obsolete term.

But maybe you prefer rhinoceroses for anchoring your belays?

Thanks for the help everybody!
I'll definitely look into getting a pocket book for reference in the future. And apparently I need to learn to draw my trees a little better :D

ARonchetti wrote:The only part of this that makes me REALLY nervous are the quickdraws. If they were used for sport climbing prior to this there could be burs which in turn could cut into the webbing and/or the rope. Not saying either of those will instantly cut in some kind of epic Cliffhanger-like scenario. But there could be some impact.

Unless you're using extremely worn or messed up biners, there's absolutely no reason to be "REALLY" nervous about using sport draws that have seen loading or whippers on bolts. If they were sharpened or deformed to the point of damaging fabric, they should be retired anyways. You will see more impact on the webbing from loading it over an edge than you'll ever see from using a draw previously used for sport.

This setup is perfectly safe with opposed draws, although many would just use a pair of lockers instead.

The overhand is the appropriate knot for flat/tubular webbing. That's how you make a tied runner. If you're not making it on a bight as shown you're threading it in the opposite direction. Either way, just dress it well so it lies flat without twists and make sure it's tight, e.g. with a runner step on the loop and pull hard. 3 inches of tail should be plenty if tight, but check for tightness over time as it will loosen.

You can improve that setup rather easily by creating redundancy as follows.

Take the two webbing ends 3 or 4 feet above the edge and tie them together in a single overhand knot, so that the "v" now looks like a "y". The tail of the "y" then becomes a redundant part of the anchor system and both quickdraws are effectively attached to both trees. This is an easy way to distribute loads and it has other benefits should part of the system fail.

The next improvement is to remove the quickdraws from the system and to use two reversed 'biners clipped into both webbing loops. Now the tail of the "y" is a redundant closed loop and both 'biners are connected to each tree. Fewer 'biners means fewer opportunities to come unclipped. Obviously lockers are best but not necessary if the 'biners are reversed with similar profiles.

They used single-stranded webbing due to the distance to the trees, but closed loop webbing would improve this system even more, because when you combine two webbing loops with a single overhand you get a cleaner attachment for your 'biners, plus you have an extra strand of webbing taking wear at the edge. And, when you use the overhand above and below the edge you now would have 4 independent strands over the edge. You would have to cut all 4 for the anchor to fail.

n00b wrote: Just point of clarification: cows are ungulates, not pachyderms. "Pachyderm" is an obsolete term. But maybe you prefer rhinoceroses for anchoring your belays?

Pachyderms are elephants. Much better than rhinos (tusks aren't redundant).

tim wrote:I like to have the biners sitting directly on the cliff edge so my military spec webbing doesn't get worn.

LOL

Dylan B. wrote:Instead, use a wrap-three, pull-two technique, or a basket-hitch type arrangement.

Agreed!

ryancdcampbell wrote:Thanks for the help everybody! I'll definitely look into getting a pocket book for reference in the future. And apparently I need to learn to draw my trees a little better :D

Ryan, get the pocket version, but check out the full size to read. You'll want the text for starters, then the other just to remember.

You don't have to know all the zillion ways to do these, just understand the concepts. Then you will be much better prepared to at least know why something doesn't seem quite right.

Go to the Devil's Lake top rope cluster F thread, too. TONS of great info! And, good practice evaluating seriously bad anchors.

Best, H.

BrianWS wrote: Unless you're using extremely worn or messed up biners, there's absolutely no reason to be "REALLY" nervous about using sport draws that have seen loading or whippers on bolts. If they were sharpened or deformed to the point of damaging fabric, they should be retired anyways. You will see more impact on the webbing from loading it over an edge than you'll ever see from using a draw previously used for sport. This setup is perfectly safe with opposed draws, although many would just use a pair of lockers instead.

Agree. Burrs on the bolt side biner from whippers are worse for the rope than for webbing because the sheath is moving across the burr while the webbing is loaded/unloaded in one spot. Imagine pressing your thumb against the edge of a knife, vs moving your thumb along the edge of a knife while pressing.

Only thing that bothers me about the setup is that the draws are opposite but not opposed. I would have faced the gates away from each other.