Belay devices for multipitch

Hey everyone,

So after all the nonsense with MRA threads dominating the forum, I thought it might be nice to have a bitter, angry thread about actual climbing and broach the subject about what people prefer to bring with them on trad climbs, particularly multi-pitch. When I first got into trad, most of my partners exclusively used tube-style devices and asked that I do so as well because assisted-breaking devices (Grigris) cause extra load to be placed on gear, thus increasing the likelihood of gear pulling and/or breaking. I've seen some data that support this, and anecdotally noticed that people were using Grigris on every single gear-pulling fall I've seen on Weekend Whipper (this could be a coincidence, but it's an interesting pattern). However, I've recently heard some fairly convincing arguments for using Grigris/etc, so I'm not sure where I stand. Arguments I've seen for Grigris:

1) They work "better" than ATCs in guide mode. This one's iffy, as Petzl even recommends against doing this and I generally find it disturbingly easy to disengage the cam, particularly with thinner ropes. Still, people do it.

2) They're more likely to hold a FF2 anchor fall and/or other severe fall. The relatively low incidence of FF2s make most belayers unaware of just how violent they can be, and recent tests have shown that most belayers are not prepared to catch direct falls onto the anchor and are likely to drop the leader in such scenarios using tube style devices. While this is a very low likelihood event, the consequences are clearly severe, and if you're climbing close to your limit or on poorly protected routes, this scenario becomes much more likely. So...what do you guys take with you and/or ask of your belayers?

Don't complicate things. ATC Guide.

If I'm trad climbing, I tend to use a tube style device for the reason you mentioned. If I'm climbing choss I'll make a judgement call between the alpine smart and a tuber because of rockfall potential. If a factor 2 fall is even remotely a possibility I'll use a munter hitch so I don't have to brake with my arm at chest level.

I don't care what device my partner uses and he/they don't care what I use. We just want each other to be attentive and proficient belayers. That's the most important trait, in my opinion.

For a single-rope climb, I use a Cinch; with twins, I use my recently-acquired DMM Pivot.

We don't worry about the extra impact on the upper piece from using an assisted-braking belay device (Cinch, Gri Gri, etc.) We leave those worries to the masses on Mountain Project to debate!

If I'm not worried about hauling a ton of extraneous stuff, and it's all bolted belaya, I'll use the gri-gri and pack an atc too. Otherwise it's the atc (guide) all the way.

Had nothing to do with lowering the impact force (technique wins over device on that front, and that's hard to perform at a hanging belay regardless), and everything to do with surety of catch while I'm trying to drink water (or whatever) at the belay.

Megajul. One device to rule them all.

Er, most. Ropes over 10mm get an indirect belay using an ATC and redirect off bolt/extra piece.

FrankPS wrote:e don't worry about the extra impact on the upper piece from using an assisted-braking belay device (Cinch, Gri Gri, etc.) We leave those worries to the masses on Mountain Project to debate!

The tests showing 50% increase in force does not sway you at all?

But if an aid soloist falls off el cap after ripping a piece, does the grigri still catch them?

This has been around a fair amount by now---make of it what you will.

Grigri anchor loads

Wow. Extra 2 kn is significant on small gear, and the rest of the results are not negligible. That's an interesting trend John Wilder. I find the opposite to be the case; I have yet to see a Grigri used for lead at the local trad area (Devil's Lake).

Grigri for belaying, even in the alpine. 160 grams. about the weight of a #2 or #3 BD Cam.

My partner and I both use GriGris for belaying the leader and for belaying the second up. We both also carry MegaJuls, mainly for rope+tag rappels. Belaying a second on the anchor with a GriGri is so nice. We use the Beal Opera 8.5 or a Mammut Serenity 8.7 if we want a beefier rope.

I use a gri gri or the mega jewel for a long hike. I use skinny cord 9.1 almsot exclusively. The increase in load i think is negligable. Espechially on a rope with a low impact force rating. I climb trad on thin and bad gear and fall on it and it holds most of the time.
I took a 20ft or so fall on a purple c3 was caught by a grigri, and it didnt budge. I fell 3 more times before finding the seqaunace.
I have fallen on resonably shallow brass in zion, it held despite the grigri.

I echo john wilder here, Everbody who climbs hard trad uses the gri gri.

I also get hit with rocks. Its alot harder to lose control of a grigri than a tube if your helmets now in two chunks.

If its good enough for peter croft, karl kavarshy and rob pizem its good enough for me. Those guys go father and harder, whip bigger and are generally pushing limits on equipment to failure.

If rob isnt ripping micro pro out with a grigri belay on a 9.0mm rope, you will not

Brian Scoggins wrote:If I'm not worried about hauling a ton of extraneous stuff, and it's all bolted belaya, I'll use the gri-gri and pack an atc too. Otherwise it's the atc (guide) all the way. Had nothing to do with lowering the impact force (technique wins over device on that front, and that's hard to perform at a hanging belay regardless), and everything to do with surety of catch while I'm trying to drink water (or whatever) at the belay.

I pretty much completely agree with this.

I really like the cinch for belaying up a 2nd, almost zero effort to pull slack and it locks instantly. BTW this is the only thing I use the cinch for. We will carry gigi/ovo for the rappel. The leader usually gets belayed with a grigri. I would rather spend the energy carrying the heavier cinch than spend the energy pulling slack through something with a lot of friction.

I would expect that the majority of gear is ripping due to poor placements.

Even then most whippers are still closer to FF0.3 than FF1. And off Rgold's chart that really means SFA difference with a gri-gri. Remember a FF1 means that after rope stretch the climber is now BELOW the anchored belayer!

Personally I'm not a fan of a gri-gri but I don't believe there is much to be concerned about the extra load on trad gear unless you are on marginal gear/rock. That said, if I'm climbin on sub 5kN RPs I'll happily accept a softer catch.

Rick Blair wrote: The tests showing 50% increase in force does not sway you at all?

No, it doesn't. I'm more likely to get dropped from belayer error, or have a piece fail due to pilot error, than to have a correctly placed piece fail due to a correctly used gri-gri. Marginal gear is a whole other kettle of fish. When I start climbing above truly marginal gear, in a scenario where a fall is a reasonable possibilitu, then I'll reassess.

DMM Pivot. ATC style but better.

I would assume that this test was done with an anchored GriGri to allow measurement, which would take dynamism ( belayer movement ) out of the test which would exaggerate the forces in the results.

For me the grigri is almost always worth the extra weight. I'd say that they are quite prevalent in trad areas I've been to in NC and CO.

The biggest advantages are:

• Much easier to belay the second on slab.
• Can give running belay on sketchy routes with ground fall potential (pretty mandatory at Stone Mt. NC).
• Keeps the belayer from dropping you if they get incapacitated by rockfall (Eldo).
• Lets one multitask, especially useful for multipitch/aid climbing.
• Provides a safety net if you get distracted while belaying (which should never happen, but once you can't see your climber and there are hundreds of lady bugs crawling on your body, things change).
• Can be used for many other useful things in case of emergency, rescue, shenanigans, etc...

The only time I don't bring one is if the amount of hiking is far greater than the amount of technical climbing or if I am climbing on doubles. I heartily agree that if gear blows, that's the kind of time where having the Grigri would be very reassuring to everyone involved.

Here is a review I did on the DMM Pivot. It is focused on the Pivot, but you may find some useful information...

alpinist.com/doc/web16f/ms-…