Alpine butterfly bend to join 2 ropes
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Disclaimer: I love and use the EDK and think that its wonderful and magical when done properly. |
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Seems like a complex solution to a simple problem. |
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By eliminating the potential of capsize, it seems like a pretty good solution to me. Thanks for your input. |
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A properly dressed and tightened flat overhand with plenty of tail also takes care of the potential to capsize. |
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Em Cos wrote:A properly dressed and tightened flat overhand with plenty of tail also takes care of the potential to capsize.Longer tails does not mitigate capsize potential. Properly dressing the knot helps mitigate but does not eliminate. Perhaps my disclaimer is lost on blind eyes, I understand and use the EDK. I am wondering if others in the climbing community have experience using the alpine butterfly bend and what their experience was regarding rope snag. This knot is easy to tie, plays to the advantages of its intent (opposing loads), eliminates capsizing and is easy to untie after prolonged loading. -Alex |
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Alex Jacques wrote:Disclaimer: I love and use the EDK and think that its wonderful and magical when done properly. Does anyone have any good input on using an alpine butterfly bend for double rope raps? Seems as though it takes care of the potential capsizing issue of the EDK, as the knot is designed to take opposing loads. Also, it doesn't seem to take up any more bulk than the EDK, so wouldn't seem to increase snag potential. -AlexIf I'm picturing the knot you're thinking of, it doesn't have a flat side like the EDK, so it WOULD be snag prone. Not as bad as a fat dbl fisherman's, but somewhat worse than the EDK. |
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Gunkiemike wrote: If I'm picturing the knot you're thinking of, it doesn't have a flat side like the EDK, so it WOULD be snag prone. Not as bad as a fat dbl fisherman's, but somewhat worse than the EDK.That was my thought Mike, possibly more snag than EDK, but less than the alternatives. It's a pretty low profile knot... Curious if others have had success. -Alex |
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The potential problem with a capsizing knot is if it rolls off the ends of the rope. Long tails mitigate this. The amount of force required to capsize a properly dressed and tightened flat overhand far exceeds what one would normally see in a rappel. If and when the knot does capsize, the resulting knot is tighter and requires even greater force to roll again. After a small number of rolls, (2 or 3? Can't recall exactly) the knot will hold until the force increases to the point of breaking the rope at the knot. |
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Em Cos wrote:The potential problem with a capsizing knot is if it rolls off the ends of the rope. Long tails mitigate this. The amount of force required to capsize a properly dressed and tightened flat overhand far exceeds what one would normally see in a rappel. If and when the knot does capsize, the resulting knot is tighter and requires even greater force to roll again. After a small number of rolls, (2 or 3? Can't recall exactly) the knot will hold until the force increases to the point of breaking the rope at the knot. So long tails will not keep a knot from capsizing, but they will keep that capsizing from mattering. Tied properly (well-dressed and tightened), with sufficient tails, there is no danger from capsizing.I'm aware. Again, looking for input on parties that have done multiple rappers on an alpine butterfly bend, not looking to discuss the EDK as I am well versed in its application and safety profile. -Alex |
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I apologize, you brought up the flat overhand as a point of comparison, and seemed to be wondering why the alpine butterfly is never mentioned as an alternative. I think the answer to that is that for many climbers including myself, no alternative is needed. You mentioned a weakness of the flat overhand being a danger of capsizing, I was trying to point out there are ways to completely eliminate that danger without changing knots. If you know all that already, and still prefer a different knot, have at it. |
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Alex, |
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I am proposing a knot that is easier to untie, and fits the design of oppositional loading, with similar profile for getting caught to the EDK. That is all. Thanks. |
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Alex Jacques wrote:I am proposing a knot that is easier to untie, and fits the design of oppositional loading, with similar profile for getting caught to the EDK. That is all. Thanks.I'd like to see a photo of what you're proposing. You say "the knot is designed to take opposing loads". But isn't every knot? |
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Personally, I would have a harder time tying an alpine butterfly bend as my muscle-memory versions involve the rope being in one piece. While i love alpine butterfly knots, having to re-learn to tie one with loose ends is off-putting. Of course it can be done with a little bit of practice, but like the OP asks, is it worth it? |
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Well, |
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I've wondered the same thing, the alpine butterfly bend in many ways does seem like an ideal knot to join two rappel ropes. However it is more complicated to tie and few climbers are familiar with it. The EDK is simple to tie, everyone knows how to check it, and as long is it's well-dressed, with very long tails and a second EDK tied as a backup, its perfectly safe. |
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If you are after an alternate abseil knot that is: |
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How about this one? |
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Alex Jacques wrote:I am proposing a knot that is easier to untie, and fits the design of oppositional loading, with similar profile for getting caught to the EDK. That is all. Thanks.I have wondered the same thing myself, though have not tied it for a rappel. The butterfly is designed to take pull on either end of the rope. With the overhand, the way that it is being tied subjects it to pull the strands in an "untie" direction. And while not a concern that is very valid in rappelling, if the overhand was loaded like this in a more high load scenario, everyone would be telling you that it is a big no no BECAUSE it is being pulled into a capsizing position. Still, I think with the butterfly you end up with a loop on either side that is wrapped around the direction of the rope's travel, and ultimately, this is still going to have as much hang up potential as a double fisherman's, hence why I gave up on this knot for this purpose. The low profile nature of the overhand is precisely why I use it. IF the butterfly had the same profile, it would be a big win because it would still be giving you about 65% strength of the rope whereas rapping on an overhand gives you about 500-700 pounds before starting to capsize. |
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I've had this thought before, mainly because the Alpine Butterfly is so strong and easy to untie after loading. While I haven't tested it in the field I have tried a few little experiments at home. The major anti-snag advantage of the EDK isn't so much its overall low bulk, but rather its complete lack of bulk on one side. The EDK'a underside is every bit as smooth as bare rope. |
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Here's the knot in question. |