How do you interpret safety ratings?
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I realize all ratings in climbing are subjective. But I'm curious how others interpret safety ratings to decide how I should interpret them. The main issue is with PG-13, with R and X I expect runouts and/or questionable placements to be almost more common than solid placements. But I have seen PG-13 given to routes that I thought had pretty good placements and on routes that describe (what I read as) dangerous runouts. I have generally avoided PG-13 routes because of the uncertainty, so maybe I would be more comfortable than I expect on some of those climbs. |
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Some guidebooks do use G and PG. Levin's Eldo book for example |
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Guides occasionally use G/PG (Gunks for sure). As for PG-13...usually safe, could mean long runouts for slabbish stuff. R starts getting pretty sketch or needs small gear. |
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But hey, leader never falls |
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With a grain of salt, just like I do difficulty ratings. |
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You have to be able to assess your ability to protect the climb from the ground when looking at the climb, regardless of what the guidebook says. That depends on your skill, experience, fitness level, and the gear you brought with you to the crag. |
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I'm in Denver and so I wouldn't be surprised if the ratings are going to be less consistent with some many different people in a relatively small area, and more still coming in. |
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It appears at times a rating can have to do with your proficiency in placing protection. I did a lot of climbing back in the early 80's and then got out of it for about 30 years. When I got back into it I found that for the most part people relied very heavily on cams. It seams a lot of times that if a climb does not readily accept cams it safety rating is bumped up regardless if there are good passive options. |
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The US safety ratings were based of the MPAA movie ratings. Back in the day those ratings were: G / PG / R /X. (Note the lack of PG13). Many climbs/climbing areas still just grade on this scale -- without a PG13. Then, it was decided that PG was a bit too broad, the ratings a bit too conservative (as values changed) and the MPAA had forgotten/not properly trademarked X for a rating (resulting in XXX porn movies, for example), and this scale has been updated to G / PG / PG13 / R / NC17. Apparently some protection grading has absorbed the new "PG13" but not the change from "X" to "NC17". |
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Also MP doesn't even give G or PG as options for rating routes. |
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G, PG and PG-13 shouldn't even exist. Hell, X maybe not either because very few climbs are really X..very few. |
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While I see how ones ability to place gear will effect how the rating applies, there are some climbs that just don't offer much for gear placements. Which should be what the rating is referring to. Sure, you can expect a slab to have few, if any, placements and parallel sided cracks are going to tend to have plenty of placements. So those you can figure out from the description alone, but face climbs might take a lot and might not take any. Those are where the rating are really useful (and of course there are exceptions where there could be a slab that takes lots of gear or a crack that might not take much). |
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Brady3 wrote:While I see how ones ability to place gear will effect how the rating applies, there are some climbs that just don't offer much for gear placements. Which should be what the rating is referring to. Sure, you can expect a slab to have few, if any, placements and parallel sided cracks are going to tend to have plenty of placements. So those you can figure out from the description alone, but face climbs might take a lot and might not take any. Those are where the rating are really useful (and of course there are exceptions where there could be a slab that takes lots of gear or a crack that might not take much).Man, how did we ever climb anything before the Internet. The Idea that any rock climb is safe Is news to most of us, with @ least 10 yrs experience. A hint at the difficulties is nice if you want a reason not to try something. Look before you Climb, take what typically is your standard rack and give it a go. What I ,at my short stature, call PG13 is not what a 6 foot tall climber would call PG, The idea that you can trust the opinion of written or internet guides &/or locals is also a problem. ( when it is your home crag it is more often always PG not PG13, due to familiarity.) I think you are in Colorado? The different areas there are a great example. El Do, pg13 vs Lumpy Ridge pg13? , Ive Been on 11s at both areas and would have called all of Eldo, R, until id climbed there a few times. Or the bolts, but not sport climbs, in the South Platt? vs Penitent or the Rockgarden? |
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John Wilder wrote:, If you're not solid, you'll probably get spooked, but probably not hurt if you pop.Most of the routes that are PG-13 that I've climbed or rated as PG-13 means a fall in the wrong place very likely will result in serious injury or a large fall. The main difference between PG-13 and R to me is that PG13 means the climbing in the dangerous section is probably easy so the fall is unlikely, whereas with R the climbing is probably harder, or the runout is longer. However, with both PG13 and R, minding some exceptions, falling at the wrong time will likely result in injury. |
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Michael Schneider wrote: Man, how did we ever climb anything before the Internet. The Idea that any rock climb is safe Is news to most of us, with @ least 10 yrs experience. A hint at the difficulties is nice if you want a reason not to try something. Look before you Climb, take what typically is your standard rack and give it a go. What I ,at my short stature, call PG13 is not what a 6 foot tall climber would call PG, The idea that you can trust the opinion of written or internet guides &/or locals is also a problem. ( when it is your home crag it is more often always PG not PG13, due to familiarity.) I think you are in Colorado? The different areas there are a great example. El Do, pg13 vs Lumpy Ridge pg13? , Ive Been on 11s at both areas and would have called all of Eldo, R, until id climbed there a few times. Or the bolts, but not sport climbs, in the South Platt? vs Penitent or the Rockgarden?It's more so that I can get an idea of the climb before I look at it. I only have a couple climbing partners that want to do trad, a few more that will follow trad, and none that will tolerate a hike more than 15 min. So I am often left to areas that will only have a couple trad climbs, thus I don't want to drive out to a crag with only one thing that I really want to climb only to find that I won't be comfortable with the placements. The reason I decided to go ahead and try Warn'r even though it is PG-13 is because I had looked at it and thought it looked ok for gear, it still turned out better than I expected because I assumed it to be worse than it looked based off the rating. I realize that all ratings in climbing are subjective and are only useful to a certain point. But they are still useful. From what others are saying, I won't make a special trip for a PG-13 climb until I'm more comfortable at that grade, if I end up looking at a PG-13 climb close to my limit I may still climb it depending on how it looks to me and how I feel that day. |
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Brady3 wrote: It's more so that I can get an idea of the climb before I look at it. I only have a couple climbing partners that want to do trad, a few more that will follow trad, and none that will tolerate a hike more than 15 min. So I am often left to areas that will only have a couple trad climbs, thus I don't want to drive out to a crag with only one thing that I really want to climb only to find that I won't be comfortable with the placements. The reason I decided to go ahead and try Warn'r even though it is PG-13 is because I had looked at it and thought it looked ok for gear, it still turned out better than I expected because I assumed it to be worse than it looked based off the rating. I realize that all ratings in climbing are subjective and are only useful to a certain point. But they are still useful. From what others are saying, I won't make a special trip for a PG-13 climb until I'm more comfortable at that grade, if I end up looking at a PG-13 climb close to my limit I may still climb it depending on how it looks to me and how I feel that day.I'm sorry to hear that sport climbing has outpaced the American driven art of climbing by fair means. The innovations in gear, the overall reduction of the total weight of everything, makes taking & placing lots of gear, climbing farther and farther afield so much easier than it has ever been. Your comment about the current trend to cluster at the roadside climbing zones seem like a lack of awareness of the vast opportunities that the technology was designed to give us. I'm really sad to hear that approaches and solitude are not a higher priority to so many climbers. Back in the day comment avoided. . . This should not be viewed as a slap, it just is the progression of the activity. It is a trend seen 1st in Europe that led to the initial rise in sport climbing as well as climbing standards. The availability of Conveniences, & safety should be high priorities. The increased levels of sheer climbing abilities of gym trained climbers, has out-paced their learning curve. Climbers do not gain the experience on moderate routes, instead they lean on all the information of the supposed difficulties that might be encountered. Then get on climbs that may be above their comfort level to lead without hanging or falling. Going at climbing this way certainly warrants a well schooled, as fully informed as possible approach. Bolts and support of others fill out the safest way to go. I get that, and certainly take full advantage of the progress, that has taken over climbing. Climbing is dangerous the physical side and the safety side often play catch up with each other. I try to stress that milage, practice and careful progress are more important than made up numbers. That message has mostly hit cement as opposed to fertile soil. Not deaf ears just more often, it is the hubris of youth ~ "A get out of the way grand-pa,, we are Rad crushers sending by hanging our way up" It is different from older ways of learning to climb, and fosters a faith in the gear, I'm glad the gear, the protection is up to the challenge. Knees and ankles, the ravages of time should be the only reason that today's climbers stay close to the truck. |
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Michael,,just great stuff...thanks for saying it. |
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Brady3 wrote: It's more so that I can get an idea of the climb before I look at it. I only have a couple climbing partners that want to do trad, a few more that will follow trad, and none that will tolerate a hike more than 15 min. So I am often left to areas that will only have a couple trad climbs, thus I don't want to drive out to a crag with only one thing that I really want to climb only to find that I won't be comfortable with the placements. The reason I decided to go ahead and try Warn'r even though it is PG-13 is because I had looked at it and thought it looked ok for gear, it still turned out better than I expected because I assumed it to be worse than it looked based off the rating. I realize that all ratings in climbing are subjective and are only useful to a certain point. But they are still useful. From what others are saying, I won't make a special trip for a PG-13 climb until I'm more comfortable at that grade, if I end up looking at a PG-13 climb close to my limit I may still climb it depending on how it looks to me and how I feel that day.From my experience, the rating scale is relative to each area. The more front-country the area, the less runout something is before it gets a rating. The more backcountry, the more runout something will be before a rating. As such, I'm warier of PG13 climbs in mountain ranges. As for PG/PG13 in general, my take would be I'd expect the potential for a really long fall but most likely not hitting much OR a short fall but hitting something but not enough to warrant say R. I think this second case might apply to the climbs you felt were well protected but had PG-13 ratings. They might have had a not really runout section but the short fall you would have taken would have landed you square onto a slab or ledge or tree or something. (also sorry for digging up a post from September, I was bored) |
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G - No Risk.
PG - May hurt a little. PG-13 - May end up in hospital if you fall at the right spot but likely just get hurt really bad and get carried / limp home. R - Good chance a fall will end up in a hospital, if you are lucky your friends will carry you to the car and you will go have a beer afterwards. X - At least half the route you are free soloing or are placing only mental gear to help stop the shaking. |
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G- It's the Shit |
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Safety ratings definitely vary regionally, so there is no one answer to this. But pretty much everywhere R-rated definitely means that there will be unavoidable climbing at a grade not too far below the route's rating in an unprotectable area with a serious chance of serious injury if the moves are blown. It means be very, very solid at the grade. |