3 cam units vs 4,

Hey everyone,

So I'm curious about people's opinions on this subject. When I first built up my rack, I went straight for 4 cam units (BD X4s, Totem Basics) because I heard that 4 cam units are inherently more stable and less prone to walking. However, some people have made the claim that 3-cam units (TCUs, C3s) actually have several advantages, especially in the smallest sizes, and I was hoping to expand upon this. The obvious advantage is profile; TCUs will fit in some funky pod/pocket placements that their 4-lobed cousins will not. Black Diamond also claims that C3s have a "constant camming angle" due to the triangle shape that makes them more stable and less likely to pull when a cam moves due to rope movement. I don't have too much experience with TCU/C3s...what do you guys think of them compared to 4-lobed cams?

"First lead of the week" I last did at Tuolumne, I wished I'd had a 3-lobe cam at the crux. Instead, I had to make due with 2 out of 4 lobes protecting me.

I'll risk a first response based on my experience. I prefer the three cam units in the smaller sizes because they are narrower. In the Gunks I've found that thinner cracks can also be narrower so the narrower head makes them more usable in more placements than a similarly sized X4 or alien. I also think the wider center lobe of the C3 gives it good stability on otherwise wonky placements. But other people can argue the wider center lobe does the opposite and they have a valid point as well. It's all experiential.

I have Metolius TCUs and Mastercams. The Mastercams are generally more useful but for the cost and weight savings the TCUs are pretty nice. For shaving weight, potential bail, horizontal cracks or weird pods/pin scars the TCU can be better.

There are a whole lot of factors to consider and a lot of it will depend on the type of rock you climb and the features it forms. In areas with shallow cracks and/or pin scars, TCUs are gonna fit better than 4CUs, although they may be less stable and will exert force on a smaller area of rock (which is bad for soft rock or choss). Alien style cams and Totems provide a middle ground with 4 lobes yet a small head width. Consider looking at Totem cams.

Already own a set. :)

Tcus don't always have a smaller contact patch, look at this picture cdn.outdoorgearlab.com/phot…

My theory is that tcus walk more, but a vertical placement will rotate in the direction of fall force. A flexible 4cu is the opposite, placing one straight out in a vertical crack and falling on it torques the lobes and stem.

To be honest I think the nature of the placement and rope management has a lot more to do with the cams walking than any how many lobes. 3 cam units are often lighter and cheaper, important considerations when carrying more than a double rack.

Ive heard 4 cam units walk in but 3 cam units walk OUT!

I have only 4 lobe cams, and had never really placed any TCUs. On my last climb, we were using my friend's rack and I ended up using his TCUs very often in thin pocketed cracks. Could I have slotted in a quad? Probably, but the TCUs went in faster and were plenty secure.

That said, if the crack were longer, I probably would have placed a quad or an offset quad and been just fine with it. It comes down to where you are climbing and what is best for you and your area. I will probably end up getting some smaller TCUs based on this last experience, but I am not going to rush out and buy a full set.

Locker wrote:The most important things to consider are Fall Factors and Micro Fractures. Just check for those two things and you'll be fine.

Quiet, you! ;)

Weight is a good point, although I feel like Totems are ridiculously light. Still, it definitely adds up. I've had similar experiences Matt...yeah, you might be able to get a 4 lobed unit into that placement, but it's not going to be nearly as solid and some of the lobes might be tipped out.

I place my 4 cam units significantly more often... But I'm sure glad I have a 3 cam unit (C3s in my case... VERY narrow heads) when I do use it.

When I carry doubles in the smallest sizes the second is a C3. In the .3-.4 (camalot) I don't usually carry a 3 cam until I'm carrying triples.

I had a full set of Metolious TCUs for a long time... And almost never used them. Revolutionary in their day, but in this day and age you can get the same head width in a 4 cam and much much narrower in a 3 cam.

Just read the post on page 11 where you will see the picture of C3. It's pretty relevant.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112939616/totem-cams-black-to-orange-preorder-kailas-nucototem-basic-and-kailas-emery-nuts?page=11#ForumMessage-115442362

Did you just necro a 2 year old thread just to link to your own post in a more recent one?

Ted Pinson wrote: Did you just necro a 2 year old thread just to link to your own post in a more recent one?

Yep
When I typed in google ''3 lobes vs 4 lobes cams'' it brings me to this. After read all post I thought it could obviously serve fellows.

"Three cam units" include C3s and TCUs. I want to be clear that TCUs and C3s are very different things in my mind. Since TCU stems are on the outside of the lobes, they are wider than C3s and often comparable to 4 lobe unit head widths. This makes them less valuable in the smallest sizes. I think they do well in pods, otherwise, most anything else is equivalent or superior.

C3s have a narrow head width plus a stiff stem and action that makes them clutch pieces for difficult to protect routes. They simply fit in places nothing else will.* They are my go-to small cam. I've climbed a few 5.12s where the crux pro was a C3, or maybe a couple next to each other, with no other viable options.

However, surface area becomes more relevant in soft rock. At places like the Creek, where in general you have a bit more room in the crack, more lobes makes it less likely you'll blow the rock out. I think of these scenarios as generally more specialized and bring different small gear accordingly. On the other hand, check out videos of "Carbondale Short Bus." C3s in sandstone, and they hold.

*I haven't used totems.

Derek DeBruin wrote: "Three cam units" include C3s and TCUs. I want to be clear that TCUs and C3s are very different things in my mind. Since TCU stems are on the outside of the lobes, they are wider than C3s and often comparable to 4 lobe unit head widths. This makes them less valuable in the smallest sizes. I think they do well in pods, otherwise, most anything else is equivalent or superior.

C3s have a narrow head width plus a stiff stem and action that makes them clutch pieces for difficult to protect routes. They simply fit in places nothing else will.* They are my go-to small cam. I've climbed a few 5.12s where the crux pro was a C3, or maybe a couple next to each other, with no other viable options.

However, surface area becomes more relevant in soft rock. At places like the Creek, where in general you have a bit more room in the crack, more lobes makes it less likely you'll blow the rock out. I think of these scenarios as generally more specialized and bring different small gear accordingly. On the other hand, check out videos of "Carbondale Short Bus." C3s in sandstone, and they hold.

*I haven't used totems.

This, C3s just fit in places that nothing else (sans maybe a ballnut) will.  And yes that Carbondale Shortbus video is awesome.....doubling up on grey ghosts for the last dyno move.

As to the OP, I know you have Totem Basics but I would def check out the regular totems.  They also have a tendency to fit where nothing else will, walk less than any cam I've ever used, work better than any cam when you can't get the stem perfectly in the direction of fall and just generally inspire confidence more than any other cam I've used to date.  They also rule for protecting pinscars and you can aid on them with only two lobes engaged.