Grigri gym accident, 40' to the floor

Oops, computer error by me.

Meant to use this quote

Eric Chabot wrote:

30ft of rope zipped through the device before I could pull the brake and engage the cam. Luckily he was high on the route, so I got to learn my lesson with no injuries to my partner.

Matthew Williams 1 wrote: You can feel how this works when you lower someone on a GriGri - it's still your brake hand controlling the descent just like an ATC - the handle on the device just opens the cam. The cam is designed to be an assist, that's all...

Yes. However when you lower someone with a GriGri, the rope is bent over the side of the GriGri, not coming straight out like when you belay. So there is less friction in the latter situation.

T Roper wrote:The question I have to the mathematicians is this- How long did the dude have to death grip the climbers side for his partner to fall 40'? I'll guess 1.5 seconds

distance = 0.5 * g * (t * t)

40 feet = 12.192 meters

12.192 / (0.5 * 9.8) = time squared

2.488 = time squared

time = 1.577 seconds

Thanks Jake

20 kN wrote: The device dident relock as soon as you let go of the override? The thing about the GriGri is if the rope zips through (for whatever reason) and you let go of the cam, it is designed to relock. You can try it on rap easily. Just crank open the handle, go into a free fall for a few feet, then let go of the handle. The device will lock and you will stop. Similarly, if lowering someone on TR or lead, you can crank down on the handle to open the cam (or pinch it open), allow the climber to go into a short free fall, let go of the cam, and the device will relock instantly. I see noobs at the crag doing this crap all the time because they think it's funny to "drop" their girlfriend a few feet.

Nope. As soon as I got a hand on the brake side of the rope it relocked instantly (my hand was only burned a tiny bit) but that 30 ft of rope went through quicker than you'd think. Was a skinnier sport climbing rope, not sure the diameter.

Maybe it's different when you are using the handle on rap since you aren't cranking the cam all the way open? In my case the cam was initially fully open when the rope started to slide.

Old lady, i recommend the gri-gri highly. Especially since it sounds like you are lighter than many of the people you climb with, it will be worth while to learn, and once you have the hand movements down you may even end up dumping the atc. Another thing that can also help you avoid short roping the leader is stepping forward and back when giving slack (stand too far back and you will get flung into the wall tho). Also make sure your climber communicates with you ("clipping!"). It can be tough on lower angled terrain where routes are often bolted with overhead clips in mind

@OldladyH: hi! As another small climber, i would say if you ever start climbing with much larger folks who are working a route, lots of big falls and long hangs, consider learning to use a gri-gri to avoid elbow or other arm injuries. I bought my first gri-gri after belaying someone nearly double my weight who was working sport routes, after realizing all the pain in my elbows was from belaying him. It really, really helped. And yes, it took me a bit longer to be as proficient with giving healthy lead slack with the gri-gri vs. the atc but well worth reducing the elbow wear and tear. Ive also found it helpful to know how to use multiple belay devices well.

20 kN wrote: The thing about the GriGri is if the rope zips through (for whatever reason) and you let go of the cam, it is designed to relock. You can try it on rap easily. Just crank open the handle, go into a free fall for a few feet, then let go of the handle. The device will lock and you will stop. Similarly, if lowering someone on TR or lead, you can crank down on the handle to open the cam (or pinch it open), allow the climber to go into a short free fall, let go of the cam, and the device will relock instantly. I see noobs at the crag doing this crap all the time because they think it's funny to "drop" their girlfriend a few feet.

One question. Is this always true? It is easy to belay with a grigri much like one does with an ATC. i.e. slide the rope through. I thought a grigri locked because the rope on the brake side was accelerating. In the cases you mention, they are accelerating. if however they are descending a slab - or because the belayer is hold the rope and suffering burns they might not be accelerating, and the grigri not lock.

Old lady H wrote:Part of the probkem has to do with short arms, which can translate to mucg less rope per feed, and needing more, faster movements to keep up with taller climbers.

It has nothing to do with the length of your arms or the height of the climber - only with the speed of upward progress of the climber and perhaps the need for fast clips. Stop trying to blame everything on your stature.

Marc801 wrote: It has nothing to do with the length of your arms or the height of the climber - only with the speed of upward progress of the climber and perhaps the need for fast clips. Stop trying to blame everything on your stature.

Ummm, being 6'3" myself and having short belayers frequently I can she is 100% correct. Besides that, yeah, stop trying to blame shit on being short. Most short climbers school me on a regular basis.

Are you using the recommended petzl technique to feed slack to leader? Right hand with index finger under curled placket, right thumb holding lever down when feeding slack with brake strand held in Palm of right hand using all other fingers, left hand ripping out slack. If the rope is sub 9.8mm IMO the grigri performs best. On my mammut infinity 9.5 it's exceptional, on gym fat ropes a little harder for lead belay but with good device technique absolutely not an issue and still easier to belay with than an atc IMO.

Belaying without managing cam does lock up device and isn't a feasible way to rip out an arm load of slack. The grigri is an excellent tool if used properly, and is well worth learning especially when you're climbing something that you/your partner will be falling on a lot. After some practice/experience I truly believe it's easier than an atc and infinitely safer in experienced hands.

Don't ditch the grigri!

Medic741 wrote:After some practice/experience I truly believe it's easier than an atc and infinitely safer in experienced hands. Don't ditch the grigri!

That is a HUGE call.

Belay failures (using pretty much any device) in competent hands is extraordinarily rare. I say competent because experience does not equal competence.

Grigris accidents seem to be a magnet for "experienced" but incompetent people. Thetr really is a shit tonne of anecdotal evidence for this. From my perspective, Grigri screw ups are more common than ATCs. They promote complacency.

That said I will turn to Grigris or other locking assist devices when I have a noob belaying me. But I have more faith in competent noobs than in incompetent "experienced" climbers. My last whipper I freaked my belayer out as she'd never caught anybody before. But she caught me fine and the MegaJul assisted in locking.

(She was inexperience but competent. Competent enough to have worked both as rocket scientist and a medical doctor. No exaggeration at all.)

patto wrote: From my perspective, Grigri screw ups are more common than ATCs.

Without question. I would even venture to say accidents resulting from improper GriGri use are more common than all other belay devices combined. Everyone seems to own a GriGri, and probably only about 10% of people seem to know how to actually use it in accordance with Petzl's instructions. Accidents resulting from improper GriGri usage are as common as the sun, yet I dont often hear about accidents resulting from other devices, and certainly not any one device as much as the GriGri.

I agree with the other guy that the GriGri (or any locking device) is safer than a plate belay device when used by someone who knows how to belay with it correctly. I personally saw a life saved by the GriGri. A friend took a sizeable whip, ripped a ton of gear, FF2ed into the belay, and pulled the belayer off the ledge he was standing on (he was still connected to the anchor). The lead roped pinned the belayer's brake arm against the rock while the belayer was inverted upside down. Without a locking belay device, there is no question the climber would have been dropped all the way to the deck.

This is not the first time someone was saved by the GriGri either. There are a number of stories, some rather famous, of similar incidents.

the DAV found a statistically relevant difference in favor of the grigri vs. ATC when comparing accidents at various gyms around germany

however it may well be that dem beer swilling bavarians are better trained on the device than lazy yanks indoors ... many if not most folks here dont use the grigri according to petzls instrucitons

they also found that most indoor accidents are because of lead belay failures .... specifically the lower friction of indoor climbs require quite a bit of attention as with rope stretch and the belayer being pulled up, one has much less a margin of error than higher friction outdoor routes

;)

gri gri, like foosball, is the devil

since this is just about general gri gri belay:

I've noticed that the way I belay with the grigri is different from the way I belay with the grigri 2. With the one, I can belay much closer to at ATC, where I rarely have to put my thumb on the release. I've found the gri gri 2 does not feed well this way at all, so I am much more often pushing down the cam to feed slack. I don't hover with my thumb above the cam with either device, but I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this?

Rob, you're definitely not alone...the Grigri 1 definitely feeds easier, especially with thicker ropes. That being said, the cam on the Grigri 2 is much easier to disengage because of the notch on the lever, so overall I think it's a better device, although many people disagree.

Climbed at the gym the other day. It was a round-robin type deal where you climb with as many people as possible to get raffle tickets and win a prize.

I look down while being lowered from the top of the wall, and not one... not two... but THREE people are lowering me by dropping the break stand and using both hands on the climber strand to pull the climber rope up and out of the GriGri to lower.

Seriously.

I yell down, "STOP!"

"PUT YOUR GODDAMN HAND BACK ON THAT BREAK-SIDE ROPE NOW."

Once on the ground, one of them even ARGUED with me about it. He sad, "Well the rope was sticking a bit so I had to do that to lower you..." No. No. No, jerk off. No you didn't.

And... even after telling one person BEFORE leaving the ground NOT to do it that way, he still did when it came time to lower me. I wanted to punch that fucker in the throat.

I know for a fact that if I hold on to the climbers end hard enough, the cam will not engage and the rope will slip through the device. First hand experience, while I was on a solo TR, I sensed I was about to fall and grabbed the upper rope to so myself. Instantly I started sliding down the rope, burning both my hands q in the process. Once I let go of the rope the GriGri instantly locked up. No help from below except the weight of the rope and a 1 liter water bottle.

I've been skeptical of this theory that a rope can slip through the GriGri if there is a hand gripping above and below. I went out and set up a rope with a GriGri. From a safe height I stepped off and grabbed on the rope hard with my hand (gloved). I slid to the ground much like I had experienced before. Next I repeated the same but this time I reached down to the brake strand. It didn't take much force to stop me from falling. Anything that would even qualify as a grip stop me in my tracks instantly.

I used a GriGri 1 on a good condition 9.8mm.

I just don't see how the device can fail unless there is NO hand on the brake and the belayer is gripping the climbers strand. Maybe if there is enough drag in the system but that still requires no hand on the brake.

Actually I can see a situation where a GriGri can fail with a hand on the brake. That's where the can is overridden by holding it down.

rocknice2 wrote: Actually I can see a situation where a GriGri can fail with a hand on the brake. That's where the can is overridden by holding it down.

and it only takes a minute amount of pressure to keep the thing wide open

Old lady H wrote: That's pretty interesting. If you don't also use a brake hand lowering, it can get choppy. I wonder if that alone convinced them the rope was "sticking" and needed to be pulled through??? Coming from an ATC, using the brake hand also is natural, at least for me it is.

It was just blatantly obvious these people didn't know what they were doing. The FIRST rule you learn when you belay is to NEVER let go of the brake-side of the rope. And to always keep it low and ready to lock off in case someone falls. Even when lowering. I don't know what was going through these people's minds when they thought it was ok to literally just let go of the rope altogether. And start paying out slack on the climber-side of the rope to lower me. If the GriGri's cam suddenly let go, I would have hit the deck.

What's worse is none of them apologized after I brought it up. They were just like... oh, ok. Cool.

FourT6and2 wrote:people are lowering me by dropping the break stand and using both hands on the climber strand to pull the climber rope up and out of the GriGri to lower. Seriously.

I can't picture how this would work.

Also, were you belayed with 3 ropes, 3 belayers on one rope, or this was 3 separate instances?