Are any of the new-school belay devices worth using? Also GiGi questions
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Ok. I've read 100 pages of MP posts over the past year about "fatal" flaws and failure modes and bad documentation and random troubles and etc etc for most of the new era of assisted locking belay devices like the Mammut Smart, ClickUp, MegaJul, etc. I'm feeling pretty disillusioned. |
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Gigi is a good device if you plan on belaying two climbers at once a lot or use fat ropes. One advantage is you can still take slack in on one line while the other line is weighted. For lead belaying and belaying only one second I prefer the gri gri. Carrying both is no big deal, the gi gi is super light. If I don't plan on belaying two seconds I usually just carry ATC guide and gri gri. |
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Nathanael wrote:Ok. I've read 100 pages of MP posts over the past year about "fatal" flaws and failure modes and bad documentation and random troubles and etc etc for most of the new era of assisted locking belay devices like the Mammut Smart, ClickUp, MegaJul, etc. I'm feeling pretty disillusioned. I currently use an ATC guide and climb on 9.4-10.2mm ropes. I regularly climb in a party of 3 using two single ropes and like to use "guide mode" to belay both followers concurrently. My main complaint with my current setup is how much drag there is using 2 fat ropes in guide mode; if the anchor is a bit low or the stance is bad it can be difficult to give a good belay. Additionally, it'd be nice to have assisted locking on the lead belay. What do I want? I thought something like the Alpine smart was supposed to be the magic bullet but I'm wondering if that's 95% marketing. What about the Kong GiGi + a GriGri? Are there hidden failure modes for the Gigi, because apparently as a consumer it's my job (not the manufacturer) to know the failure modes of every device on the market and then try to deduce if they could impact the device I own. ( mountainproject.com/v/mega-… ) Also, am I going to need to try every shape of locking carabiner on the market before I find one that allows my device to work as intended with my specific ropes? (various threads on the Smart and Jul).Are you familiar with the ATC Guide's failure mode when belaying 2 followers simultaneously? Edit: It's mentioned in the user guide -- no need to deduce... Seems to me that every tool in the world has failure modes and the key is knowing and avoiding them. If the only problem you have with the ATC Guide is belaying 2 followers on fat ropes, what about using thinner ropes? |
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Nathanael wrote:Also, am I going to need to try every shape of locking carabiner on the market before I find one that allows my device to work as intended with my specific ropes? (various threads on the Smart and Jul).If I were concerned about it, I'd start with the carabiner that the manufacturer recommends for the device (such as with the MegaJul). |
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The gigi is great for two followers, I also like it on longer alpine climbs where there are fast moving sections within pitches. Use a full round stock pear bine to really take advantage of it (new attache sucked). |
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GriGri works great for party of 2, especially if the terrain will let you simul-rap. It's my go-to for single rope, lead or top belay. |
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Kent Richards wrote: If the only problem you have with the ATC Guide is belaying 2 followers on fat ropes, what about using thinner ropes?I mean... $400 for 2 new ropes doesn't really seem equivalent to $10-50 on a belay device. If I were concerned about it, I'd start with the carabiner that the manufacturer recommends for the device (such as with the MegaJul). Threads like this mountainproject.com/v/mammu… are what make me hesitant. Multiple people who tried 4+ biners before finding what they like. Why can't Mammut do the legwork for me? I guess I have bearbreeder and others who have done it, so I can just ask them. But it just goes back to some frustration for companies hyping devices but not even making it clear how to get the most out of them. |
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Nathanael wrote: Are there hidden failure modes for the GigiThere's one often-overlooked potential failure mode for the Gigi or for the CAMP Ovo. If belaying from above using only one strand of rope, make sure to clip the "brake" carabiner around the plate itself, or into the hanging carabiner above. Otherwise there is a very small potential for the brake carabiner and rope to make a 180-degree twist and invert. Do this: or this: The Ovo functions very similarly to the Gigi. It can be used to belay a leader or rappel via one or two strands, but its true value is in belaying from above. With two strands of rope (one or two followers) the setup doesn't require any special carabiner arrangement. (See video demo) https://vimeo.com/51931882 |
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Nathanael wrote: Why can't Mammut do the legwork for me?Perhaps they have... "For optimal results of the SMART ALPINE, the use of the Mammut Element SMART HMS or a similar symmetrical HMS carabiner is recommended. " Nathanael wrote: I mean... $400 for 2 new ropes doesn't really seem equivalent to $10-50 on a belay device.Yeah, but what about all the time / frustration of finding a replacement for the Guide? Maybe that's worth something in opportunity cost... |
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CAMP USA wrote: There's one often-overlooked potential failure mode for the Gigi or for the CAMP Ovo. If belaying from above using only one strand of rope, make sure to clip the "brake" carabiner around the plate itself, or into the hanging carabiner above. Otherwise there is a very small potential for the brake carabiner and rope to make a 180-degree twist and invert.Thanks, I did stumble upon this. Seems like the fix is pretty straightforward. Also I didn't realize Camp made a version. Can anyone weigh in on any differences? Kent Richards wrote: Perhaps they have.. "For optimal results of the SMART ALPINE, the use of the Mammut Element SMART HMS or a similar symmetrical HMS carabiner is recommended. "Fine you got me ;) |
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Nathanael wrote: Thanks, I did stumble upon this. Seems like the fix is pretty straightforward. Also I didn't realize Camp made a version. Can anyone weigh in on any differences?Kong has a raised rib on the center. If you have two followers and follower A falls the rope for follower B is still free. You can still take the rope for follow B and they continue climbing. |
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I've had an envy of MegaJul and have been thinking of ditching my Mammut Smart for it till I learned that Megajul has really high friction in plaquette (a.k.a. "guide") mode. |
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for thick fuzzay ropes on 2 followers theres only 2 choices .... the gigi (ovo) or the alpine smart |
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According to manufacturer instructions, the GiGi DOESN'T require a backup for lowering the second climber when using guide mode. |
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Here's a question that arose in my mind from that CAMP video. He says he is following on a doubled half rope. Obviously the leader tied into the two ends, but what configuration did the follower have in terms of tying in? Rescue 8 with two lockers attached to belay loop? Figure 8 on a bight with two lockers? Just curious if I ever had to improvise in a situation like that. |
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fromtheestuary wrote:Here's a question that arose in my mind from that CAMP video. He says he is following on a doubled half rope. Obviously the leader tied into the two ends, but what configuration did the follower have in terms of tying in? Rescue 8 with two lockers attached to belay loop? Figure 8 on a bight with two lockers? Just curious if I ever had to improvise in a situation like that.I like to girth hitch myself into the middle of the rope. Feed a bight of the rope through your belay loop, then put it around your whole body. The only downside here is that you can "untie" without quite a bit of slack (to reverse the process). Otherwise, figure 8 on a bight with at least two biners (opposite and opposed non lockers would work also). |
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I've also used the CAMP Ovo quite a bit, it's my go-to belay device for longer routes. It's so much easier pulling the ropes through while guide-mode belaying, my elbows can save their energy for the actual climbing. |
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Scott Bennett wrote:I've also used the CAMP Ovo quite a bit, it's my go-to belay device for longer routes. It's so much easier pulling the ropes through while guide-mode belaying, my elbows can save their energy for the actual climbing. A few considerations: there's no keeper loop, so be careful not to drop it while rappelling. Also, it provides less friction than a reverso or atc guide. Fortunately, there's a single solution to both of these problems! I like to use an extra biner while rappelling, clipping through both strands of rope (but not my belay loop). This extra biner does not have to be a locker, but should be a similar size and shape as your main rappel biner. This adds friction, making it much easier to manage steep rappels on skinny lines. Also, you can develop an order of operations when attaching and detaching the ropes for rappel, so that the device is never loose. When attaching the device, I have it clipped through one of the "side holes" (where you'd clip it for guide mode) to my belay loop, with the locker. I then thread the ropes through and clip the non-locker. Now the device is attached to the ropes, and so I can unclip the locker from the side hole and clip it through the ropes as well. Ready to rap! When detaching, simply reverse the process. Unclip the locker from the ropes, and then back though the side hole. Then unclip the non-locker and stash it somewhere (I just clip it to the other end of the ovo). Now you're off-rap. Hope that helps, lemme know if you need clarification.this is the way kong recommends to rap with the gigi ... basically a carabiner brake the downside is that its very hard to boink up a bit and test yr setup before taking off yr safety ,... so extra visual inspection is wise web.archive.org/web/2012081… does camp recommend rapping "ATC style" for the ovo? ;) |
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I personally use the Kong atc style and put a quickdraw from my belay loop to the top hole as the 'keeper loop' it's preferable to have gloves because there isn't as much control as a standard atc. |
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I'm not sure what CAMP officially recommends, but I don't use my Ovo in the way illustrated in that Kong graphic. I use it "ATC style". I have plenty of friction when rapping on ropes down to 7mm, using that extra biner as shown in my earlier post. |
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If an assisted braking device is worth the handling cons to you then go with the alpine smart. Use a mid to large HMS biner with a round cross section (like the old attache, petzl william, old rocklock, or Sterling Falcon, for example). |