How To Get Asked Out on a Second Date
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bearbreeder wrote:Be fun Be positive Be safe Be willing to learn Be available Be a hawtie (guy or girl, whatever yr preference) Be ready to climb at yr limit Be ready to climb many many pitches and not make excuses Buy beer, food and pay for gas Thats all there is ... Everything else will come with time ;)Nail it.... PS lots of beer.... |
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eli poss wrote:A sewn sling would be stronger and less bulky, and are dirt cheap especially if you get them in nylon./quote> actually 1" webbing tied with a double fishermans is stronger than a sewn sling and will absorb slightly more energy than a sewn sling. sewn slings are rated to 22kn whereas a single strand of 1" web is 22kn. take 22*2*.8 (2 for double strand, .8 for the knot) and you get 35.2kn. but the main reason i use 1" web is because its cheaper, more durable, and tied to the perfect length.I hate to get in a tangent about technical minutiae, but your logic is flawed. The webbing isn't doubled at the knot, it's two single strands tied together. So the multiplier should be applied to a single strand. And by the way, 80% is quite generous.. There are different figures out there, but according to Bluewater, ropes retain 65-70% strength with the Double Fisherman's knot (and 60-70% with the water knot. That's rope not webbing, but it gives you an approximation. Few knots have a strength as high as 80%. For comparison, here's a chart from mammut showing various knots in sewn slings (both nylon and dyneema), and none are higher than 50% And while we're really getting technical, Bluewater rates their 1" Climb-spec Webbing at 17.7 kn, not 22kn. And as for the knot absorbing some energy, that's a whole separate debate, but I'll say two things about it. A- your sling should never have to absorb significant energy, that's what your rope is for, and B- if you are regularly loading your sling, that knot is going to be jammed pretty tight, and I am skeptical about how much energy it can really absorb. All this is relatively trivial, since if you're ever worrying about the tensile strength of your webbing, you're probably doing something very wrong.. If you want to use tied webbing as slings, that's fine, it isn't exactly unsafe (just seems silly to me) , but don't mislead yourself about the strength. Webbing tied with any knot will be significantly weaker than a pre-sewn sling. excerpt from BlueWater Document Mammut knot strenghts |
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rgold wrote:The double fisherman's is the appropriate knot for webbing that is likely, over a long period of time, to be subjected to intermittent loading. The tails on a water knot or ring bend slowly creep into the knot over time, and if the knot is not periodically checked and retied, there is a danger of the knot being undone when it has to perform. Meanwhile, there is nothing unstable about the double fishermans, and it can be "dressed" just as well as any other knot. The double fishermans also tests a little stronger than the ring bend, although I don't think the differences are even remotely significant. The beer knot is by far the worst choice, since its tails creep but you can't see one of them and have to feel for where the it should be inside the tubular webbing to tell whether or not too much creep has occurred.I can't speak to the double-fisherman's in webbing, since I have no experience with it. But the water knot in webbing is fine, and I think any concerns are greatly exaggerated. Tom Moyer did testing on this, and while creep definitely happens, it takes hundreds of cycles before it becomes a problem (Water Knot Testing) I've seen lots of old rap anchors tied with water knots, and while many where sketchy for various reasons, I don't recall any that looked in danger of failing through slippage. Bottom line, as long as you start with reasonable tails, I think the webbing will wear out from sunlight and abrasion etc long before the tails become a concern. And if you're going to leave a sling in place as a rap anchor, it's only reasonable to leave extra long tails. Any knot should be inspected before use, every single time. This goes for the water knot, beer knot, and double-fisherman's. I find that the water knot is the simplest to inspect of these, and along with the fact that it is the most commonly known webbing knot, I think this makes it most appropriate for situations like rap anchors where other people will have to inspect it. If you are the only one who will be using it, then the beer knot is perfectly fine. It can be inspected easily, yes it requires feeling it, but if you're the one who tied it, then you should know that, and be extra aware of it (You can also mark the inner tail before tying it, to add a visual warning if it slips too close to the end, but I think the feel inspection is perfectly adequate, and you don't have to worry about the effects of ink). Whether you prefer the greater strength and neatness of the beer knot, or ease of visual inspection of the water knot, or the double-fisherman's, is a matter of personal preference. Currently I only use a beer knot in a sling that I use for cleaning gear, but as long as the sling was in good condition, I would have no hesitation in using it for that purpose. Especially because I have a ridiculously long inside tail (over 12")- The main reason I use this knot is I can carry an extra long piece of webbing to use as bail/rap anchor, in the size of a single-length, neat, sling. |
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The main point of your above post is "inspection" |
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nerds never get laid may be the point that this thread is evolving into.
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T Roper wrote:nerds never get laid may be the point that this thread is evolving into.Who cares about getting laid?! The real issue is people spending time on MP when they could be out climbing. Then again, who gives a fuck? Do whatever it is that makes you happy; for me that's going out and climbing almost every day. |
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rgold wrote: 7. Self-preservation Sometimes your esteemed leader is not good relationship material themselves. Some clues: (a) The leader climbs sideways or diagonally and does not place adequate protection to keep you from bad swings. This is a deal-breaker. (b) You arent comfortable with your leaders belay anchors. Another deal-breaker. Of course, you may not have the expertise to make an informed judgement, but if your gut tells you the anchors are sketchy, best to climb with someone else. (c) Your leader insists on dragging you up routes that are way too hard. Sadly, this is often a feature of experienced men taking less experienced women climbing. Another version of this is youve basically just met and your leader wants to go on a one-week back country trip. (d) Your leader is easily frustrated and crabby with you because you are a beginner at this. They shouldnt be doing this if they dont have the patience that is predictably required. (e) Your leader insists on using using every inch of a very long rope and continually belays far out of sight and earshot. It is far better if they can belay in sight and if the two of you can converse if necessary. Since you are just starting out at this game, your leader shouldnt be choosing routes that require 60 or 70 meter leads; there shouldnt be any problem with doing shorter pitches.So, this noob is thinking another piece of this thread should perhaps be titled, "How to survive a first date". :-) Part of the list above just requires being assertive, and letting someone know what you are and are not comfortable with. But some of this you won't find out until you're stuck up in the air with someone. More on self preservation 101 would be great! As an example, for myself, I know from the guide mode lowering "oooops" threads that I want to avoid being lowered by a top belay, if at all possible. But, if I've been put on a climb I can't do, what then? What are simple ways to "cheat" up a climb, when up is the safest way to go? What if you do leave me a sketchy traverse? .. And so on. Thanks! |
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"if I've been put on a climb I can't do, what then? What are simple ways to "cheat" up a climb, when up is the safest way to go? What if you do leave me a sketchy traverse?" |
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Brady3 wrote:This is a reason to be honest about what you can climb (and hope your new partner listens) rather than trying to impress them.Climbing tends to weed out those who can't climb what they say they can climb fairly quickly. |
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Old lady H wrote: So, this noob is thinking another piece of this thread should perhaps be titled, "How to survive a first date". :-) Part of the list above just requires being assertive, and letting someone know what you are and are not comfortable with. But some of this you won't find out until you're stuck up in the air with someone. More on self preservation 101 would be great! As an example, for myself, I know from the guide mode lowering "oooops" threads that I want to avoid being lowered by a top belay, if at all possible. But, if I've been put on a climb I can't do, what then? What are simple ways to "cheat" up a climb, when up is the safest way to go? What if you do leave me a sketchy traverse? .. And so on. Thanks!I'd say first of all, use noobiness to your advantage by asking questions rather than making statements. So if your about to set out with someone who is carrying a guide-type belay device, "Hey, I've heard that it can be hard to lower with that thing. How do you do it?" If they mention backing it up before releasing it, you're good to go. If not, you're going to have to decide if you want to climb with someone you now know doesn't understand critical things about their gear. What else don't they understand? You sure don't want to be lowered by them, so make sure you'll be doing a climb well within your capabilities, and watch them extra carefully. Having survived the first date, I don't think I'd be up for a second one in this case. Traverses. Look out for yourself on these. "Hey, traverses really freak me out. Could you climb back and put in some more gear, I'm afraid of the swings I'm looking at now." Some of the worst incompetence I've seen in this regard is at the top of a pitch where the leader makes a tricky move with protection that the second will have to remove, arrives at easy climbing, and traverses way off to the side to belay without anything for the second. I've seen at least three situations in which the second would probably be killed by the fall the leader exposed them to; these being among the very few times I've ever intervened in another party's business. (One of these times, I was the second and just soloed a 5.7 move with a ledge/corner death pendulum that the effing 5.12 sport-climbing leader was too clueless or too self-absorbed---probably both---to eliminate.) Obviously a second date is out for these types. As for cheating your way upwards, the name of the game is improvised aid. This can be as simple as grabbing and pulling on gear to girth-hitching up some aid slings, standing in them, and placing pieces you've already cleaned in order to make progress. If all else fails, you should be able to safely and efficiently prussik up the rope, but this is a slow and tiring last resort. If you do have to improvise some aid moves, that much-maligned PAS I recommended is going to make the process easier and faster. |
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If you are seconding a traverse and looking at a bad swing, one option (more immediate than finding another partner) is to place gear ahead of yourself. |
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mbk wrote:If you are seconding a traverse and looking at a bad swing, one option (more immediate than finding another partner) is to place gear ahead of yourself.Sorry, I can't picture how that would work, as a second cleaning gear. If it's the jerk's gear I've been cleaning though, maybe a whole mess of cams left behind??? :-) Actually, leap frogging gear is all I can think of, but not without being able to reach ahead to set, and behind to unclip. Question: would an Alpine draw be helpful to give a short climber extra reach? And stiff enough to hold one end and slap the other in to clip what ever? Reach is a pretty common problem. Thanks, all. I'm thinking of future noobs, too, here! |
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Thanks to the OP, that's a very useful list. |
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Old lady H wrote: Question: would an Alpine draw be helpful to give a short climber extra reach?You need a 1' (30cm) sling, the biners of course, and duct tape. Quite a bit of duct tape. |
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Scott Bennett ,said ; |
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Hmmm...maybe think twice about climbing with someone who uses 'victim' to think of their climbing partner??? Or, better yet, wait until I'm belaying you on a really hard, runout, pumped out of your mind bit, and then yell up, "hey, this would be a really, really bad time to fall!!" Noobs revenge! |
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Old Lady H - are you talking about reaching bolts while leading a sport climb? |
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Tom Sherman wrote:I got stopped at 1. a) when you're advocating someone buy a PAS? Seems this thread has gone on too long without ensuing into opinionated ranting, so ergo, Why does your follower need a PAS? Some people just want to watch the world burn...I recommend gym climbing. Trad climbing is plain dumb. Especially with a PAS. |
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lenore sparks wrote: I recommend gym climbing. Trad climbing is plain dumb. Especially with a PAS.Then leave this thread alone. |
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Em Cos wrote:Old Lady H - are you talking about reaching bolts while leading a sport climb? I'm on the short side, with extra short arms - and I'm assuming the average sport route developer has a bit longer reach than I do, because I'll frequently find myself on what is obviously meant to be the clipping stance and I'm just a few frustrating inches from being able to reach the bolt even at my most stretched. Usually it's just kinda annoying, but once in a while it can be dangerous - when there's difficult climbing just above a ledge, for example, and a bolt placed that is obviously meant to protect those moves, if only you can reach it. I bought the stiffest draw I could find and put one of these on one end: madrockclimbing.com/product… I just carry one of these when I'm sport climbing and it gives me those extra 4" I need for those occasional troublesome clips. Hope that helps!Thanks! Exactly! Although worse than that, because sometimes it's the anchors out of reach. I was able to picture a potential ff2 single pitch fall, while tethered, just remembering sitting on the ledge above the climb. You'd have to work at it to fall, trip or something, but it would have been a really hard whack into the cliff. |