Backing up rappells: Who does it?

Kyle Edmondson wrote:For the record, I am not making fun of people for being safe. I am making fun of them for doing irrelevant things and believing that it makes them safe.

But its not a false sense of safety. It IS safer when you use a rappel backup, I dont think theres any way to debate that (though Im sure the internet will try and prove me wrong!). Whether or not you choose to use one is a separate issue, but there is no doubting it is safer to use one than not.

I can understand how knotting the rope may give some individuals cause to ignore how much rope they have left below them because "The knots will stop me."

I also get how having an autoblock or other backup can allow someone to feel going hands free to clean does not require a leg wrap with the rope because "Oh the autoblock holds my weight just fine."

So having extra safety precautions only helps keep someone safer if they don't then rely on them as a primary safety device. The backup is no longer a backup when it's all that's stopping the rope running through the device. And the knots aren't an extra safety measure when you keep going blindly til you hit them. Complacency is as easy trap to fall into, but that doesn't mean everyone becomes complacent when they employ extra safety measures.

johnnymuir wrote: But its not a false sense of safety. It IS safer when you use a rappel backup, I dont think theres any way to debate that (though Im sure the internet will try and prove me wrong!). Whether or not you choose to use one is a separate issue, but there is no doubting it is safer to use one than not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T4FT2SHFLo

powhound84 wrote: Pretty sure this is the only thing we can agree about here.

and the dude abides...

I wish that vid would show how the autobloc was rigged. The one glimpse makes it look too long, but I can't really see.

matt c. wrote: youtube.com/watch?v=3T4FT2S…

Perhaps Ive been proven wrong. But it seems that the culprit here is that it wasnt set up properly.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it doesnt seem like any of the following is true (from the forum Powhound linked)

"An autoblock is a really poor back up for bad technique. They don't always work, and, they require a fair amount of skill and experience to rig them properly. And, you only find out they don't work when you screw up."

1, it doesnt take much skill at all, its quite a simple procedure (I understood it the first time I was shown, and I am NOT a quick learner). 2, you will know it works because you can test it, along with the rest of your rappel system, before you come off direct from the anchor. I might be new, but this seems like a "duh" moment, right?

I use an autoblock when I feel it necessary. I agree with Kyle about knotting the ends of the rope. In my experience it has only been necessary a couple times. I am more afraid of getting the ends stuck than rapping off the end of the line.

I think you need to feel comfortable and if knotting the ends of the rope does it for you then have at it. Hopefully all will be well.

Like Kyle, I've been climbing more than 30 years and have seen all kinds of devices and accessories. The most effective safety device is your brain, use it.

a backup is absolutely no substitute for poor technique or lack of rappel experience


as shown backups can fail ... they can be setup improperly, they can be too long and hit the device, you can be on a climb and forgotten any slings or cord on the ground, etc ...

over and over again i see new folks think that the backup will "save them" despite any poor techniques ... they bounce all over the place with their prussics as they never learn just to simply sit back and rap smoothly (yes this matters when you have to rap off poor anchors) ...they go hands free without even testing the backup properly ... they are shaking like a dawg with fless when they have to rappel without a backup

if you are one of those folks that think "oh ill never forget or drop my cord (or any other piece of gear)" ... or "oh i never forget to test my backup" ... then you simply havent climbed enough or moved beyond the crag

would anyone here give a grigri to someone who has shiet belay technique, thinking itll correct the problem? ... why would we expect a backup to do the same to shiet rappel technique

a backup is exactly that .... a backup to proper techniques and experience

use a backup to protect against rockfall, and other unforseen events ... not as a bandaid for those who cant rappel properly

folks should be able to rappel absolutely confidently dozens if not hundreds of times (use a firemans if one is worried when gaining experience) BEFORE using a friction backup

again anyone who cant rappel without a backup confidently when needed should not be belaying or lowering .... thats someone elses life yr gambling with rather than yr own

;)

:-}
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Fraggle Rock Joe wrote:I do.

What? You answered the question directly, without attacking anyone or name-calling? Are you new around here? :)

Fraggle Rock Joe wrote:I'm not supposed to be a jerk.

dude, it's MP. if nobody acted like a dick it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. speaking of entertaining, what ever happened to trollanor? it's been too long since of seen some of her posts. did she go back to the taco?

I'm genuinely curious, does anyone know of a tragedy resulting from not backing up their rap? If so, please share. Otherwise, I'm going to keep on thinking people who feel the need to back up their raps... are the kind of folks who think everyone should be walking around wearing a helmet all the time.

I always use a backup because you never know when that golden hour will come to take the perfect selfie for instatwitterbook! booyah!

/s

I'll back it up on multi's or if there is a chance of snags on the way down. Overhanging routes and straightforward single pitches, I generally won't, though admittedly, it's not a bad idea. If I need to stop, the leg wrap works well.

I'm a big fan of being ready for a fireman's when others are rappelling, whether they ask for it or not.

I always back up my rappel 100% of the time. I only do this because I have really bad rappel techniques and I was just never able to master rappelling. My rappel techniques are marginal at best.

eli poss wrote: speaking of entertaining, what ever happened to trollanor? it's been too long since of seen some of her posts. did she go back to the taco?

I suspect REI bought her off. She's probably parked in one of their parking lots living a life of luxury, eating shrimp in the vansion while hapless employees cater to her every depraved whim.

I've heard of perhaps two instances in which a backup prevented a fall, at least one of which was a beginner who should have been belayed. At the same time, I've heard of many more than two incidents caused by the misuse of backups by relatively experienced people who thought they could let go of the brake hand with impunity and found that their autoblock didn't work, either because it had gotten too loose, or didn't have enough wraps, or because they hadn't extended their device, raised their leg, and the autoblock released when it hit the rap device.

There is nothing scientific about my sample. And if an autoblock does its job and nothing happens, we aren't going to hear about it. Even so, the anecdotal evidence hints that the combination of complacency and an autoblock could be as dangerous as not using one, I imagine because people may be encouraged to think the backup is 100% reliable and it is not. Testing an autoblock with a quick jerk while standing still on a ledge will tell you if the setup is grossly inadequate, but is hardly a conclusive test of performance in all situations.

I did thousands of rappels before any kind of backup became fashionable. Body rappels, swiss-seat rappels, rappels with a figure-eight, carabiner-brake rappels, and ATC rappels---you name it. The Exum guide who first taught me the body rappel back in 1957 grabbed both my shoulders, got in my face, and said, "if you let go of your brake hand you will die---got that?" "Um, yeah," I said. "Then say it back to me," he said, and I did. "And say it to yourself every damn time you start a rappel," he added with a snarl.

Nowadays, it's more like, "Y'know, you really should keep your brake hand on the rope, but gosh, if you don't, no worries, the autoblock will catch you anyway. And how neat is this---need to undo some snarls? Just let go and let the autoblock do the work."

So, said in a different way than bearbreeder, using an autoblock or not might be the wrong dichotomy. It is how you treat your situation if you do use an autoblock which will decide whether you made yourself more or less safe than you would have been without it.

Another option is to use a prusik instead of an autoblock. It's far more secure, but at the cost of being harder to release.

rgold wrote:The Exum guide who first taught me the body rappel back in 1957 grabbed both my shoulders, got in my face, and said, "if you let go of your brake hand you will die---got that?" "Um, yeah," I said. "Then say it back to me," he said, and I did. "And say it to yourself every damn time you start a rappel," he added with a snarl.

This is the attitude I have when I rap. When I was taught how to rap, it dawned on me right away that letting go of the brake hand means death. Thats why Im so into the autoblock, because its terrifying to me to be up there knowing one slip of the hand means death. I use the backup as just that, a backup, and never engage it unless Im holding the brake below the autoblock, until Im sure the autoblock is holding.

Dylan B. wrote: The 2015 edition of Accidents in North American Mountaineering came out last month and described multiple rappelling Accidents which might have been prevented with use of a back up or knotted ropes.

DEFINITELY the knotted ends. I read accident reports regularly to try and learn from them, and its gotten to the point where when I see the worlds "rappelling accident" I can bet myself that they didnt knot the ends of the rope. Sadly I dont often lose that bet.