How do you defend yourself against wildlife when hiking or approaching a climb?

Only on MP can a semi lighthearted discussion about protecting oneself from wild animals morph into a heated debate about gun safety in only a few pages......

He didn't say having a gun increases the chances of a family member being injured or killed (including killing yourself I would presume) by 50x, he said it is "50x more likely to be used for that than in a self defense scenario" i.e.

ie 1x + 50x = 1 or x= .019608

ie for every time it used in one of the categories above, it is used 1.9608% of the time for self defense and 98.0392% for the other categories

I'm not saying those statistics are necessarily accurate or the methodology used to create them was rigorous, but let's at least clarify what he was trying to say.

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LMAO... still wrong.

That is a comparison of homicides. Not every gun owner will fire their gun, and a very small percentage will actually fire at someone. Even fewer will actually kill someone. Seems that most of these folks take themselves out. I will take my chances.

cragman2 wrote:Only on MP can a semi lighthearted discussion about protecting oneself from wild animals morph into a heated debate about gun safety in only a few pages......

No it happens everywhere with anti gun people. In fact, the whole point of these studies focused on the medical field is to try push it in the frick'n doctors office. Its incidious.

Greg Barnes wrote: Don't forget to check your pocket...

Sledge Hammer - that was a hilarious show.

It seems quite a few folks here are pointing out "their" personal lack of encounters as proof of relative safety. This is Mountain Project therefor there are all types of climbers. I would suspect that most Climbers that drive to the local crag and wait in line for the good lines probably feel pretty safe. However, some of us primarily alpine climb with long solo approaches. I have seen more bear, moose, and snakes than I can count, and yes not all have been friendly nor "afraid" of me. I also returned after a climb retracing my boot prints once to find that a mountain lion had followed me for a half mile or so, earlier that morning.

Point being: If you have no experience with repelling annoyed wildlife, it's okay not to reply to this post.

"you're more likely to accidentally shoot your climbing partner" ??? I'd love to read the statistic that states how many people have been shot by their climbing partner while trying to defend a bear attack. People can throw around stats all they want. Let the gun guys have their guns. In reality most of the gun guys I know don't advertise that they have them.

I do all the textbook non lethal methods of detouring attacks and they have always worked. However, I have also been with my kids in deep wilderness and come upon a barefoot, ragged, tweeker. At which point it felt good to know I had a pistol in my pack.

BTW the gun nuts will get a kick out of this. I climb/backpack with a 44mag rose handle derringer double barrel pistol. Yes a deringer.

Nick i don't think a Derringer is a bad choice for large mammal protection whilst climbing, its small, lightweight, simple to use. There is also a model chambered in .45-70 dubbed "Alaskan Survival" or something like that, which can accept shotgun shells, flare shots, and of course the .45-70 which is known to take out a buffalo with a good shot. It's just a small item that isn't going to be a hindrance on some serious multi-pitch or just a day of cragging.

But of course that brings up the idea that Bears are known to keep charging even after taking several shots, I mean I can even imagine an Elk or a Moose continue a charge even after taking a fatal shot.

I personally believe grizzly-grade pepper spray is a better resort, at least when you're ready for the attack and can see it coming, but if you've already got an animal on you and you've got seconds before you lose an arm, or something worse, then having something quick and powerful at the hip is a necessity.

As per the original topic - Is it reasonable to take a form of personal defense in a place that has more bears per sq. mile than people? Yes. Do you need to take a $5000 military rifle and 5 magazines when you plan to be climbing that day? No. It's simply not as practical and honestly that type of stuff makes you look like a geerqueer. But that's just my opinion

cragman2 wrote:Only on MP can a semi lighthearted discussion about protecting oneself from wild animals morph into a heated debate about gun safety in only a few pages......

Actually, I can't imagine a place where it wouldn't.
I mean- the CDC has med schools "teaching" about gun safety?
Think that over for a moment and ask yourself if it is a political issue.

I haven't had too many experiences with animals chasing me but one that can and will are mountain goats looking for urine. They've definitely killed people.

I volunteered with the USFS last summer in WA. When we were doing patrols and trail work and goats charged we threw chunks of granite at their heads. All the rangers did it and we advised the public to as well. Mamma goat coming in hot for some pee is a scary sight and a longtime vegetarian like myself had no qualms with throwing rocks.

So yeah I'd say be aggressive with goats. Mother's with babies aren't bears: they'll run away. So you shouldn't be worried on that front.

I have run across alot of goats here in Colorado over the years and their numbers are growing.

Jack C, are you telling me that they will forcibly try to "drink from the source?"

That is truly frightening. Perhaps Colorado goats are less aggressive?

What about big horn sheep? I have been able to get really close to them and they always seemed curious about me. Anyone ever been attacked?

Rick Blair wrote: Jack C, are you telling me that they will forcibly try to "drink from the source?" That is truly frightening.

I think they want to lick it off the rocks, not drink from the "spigot." But protect your spigot, by any means necessary.

spencerparkin wrote:After running into a black bear a few days ago, I've started to be a bit more spooked about going on some of my favorite trails. The feeling stays with me for a while until I do enough trails without incident that it (the feeling) goes away, and then I just don't give any trail a second thought anymore after that...that is, until the next animal encounter happens. They don't happen that often, but they do happen. Moose, black-bears and rattle-snakes are what I worry about the most. I've accidentally kicked a few rattle-snakes many miles from my car! Never seen a mountain lion, but I believe I've seen their tracks in the snow. Anyhow... If a moose or bear were to attack/charge, what would you do? Bear spray? Moose spray? Do any of you carry a gun while hiking? I'm timid about carrying any sort of fire-arm. Shoot a few rounds into the air? How about a rattle-snake bite? Carry any anti-venom? Only doctors can administer that, right?

This thread is pretty long at this point so I'll just respond to the OP:

I've owned and carried guns in the backwoods far longer than I've been climbing. I've had a few experiences with wild animals, including bears, and recently wild pigs. In almost all situations I had a gun. I've never had to use it. If you're not comfortable with guns, don't carry one. Particularly for climbing excursions, it'll just be a hassle.

I would suggest you pay more attention to your surroundings when in the back country and read up on the various dangerous animals in your area, and how to avoid confrontation with them. That will help a lot.

Rick Blair wrote: Jack C, are you telling me that they will forcibly try to "drink from the source?"

IN!!

Before you get any ideas Descender, I think they have pretty sharp teeth.

Just bring your wife. Never had an issue,

Scoop wrote:Just bring your wife. Never had an issue,

My wife and I were car camping in Tuolumne at a campground with very widely spaced sites-a beautiful primitive site. We were in a small backpacking tent and my wife awakened me to ask me what that noise was.

"A bear", I answered. It dragged my climbing gear duffel (never used for food) off a little ways and started tearing it apart. When it didn't find any food, it came back to the tent. I had my knife out and when it got close, I just yelled at it. I could sense that it scooted off.

My wife said that she was awakened by a nudging of her head. She thought it was me until she realized it was through the tent fabric. She had washed her hair that day and used an herbal cream rinse.

So, bring your wife, but not if she has used scented personal care products.

I couldn't help myself, this thread is really stupid......

There are no recorded attacks by wolves on adult humans in North America, ever, period. Siberian wolves will attack people.

Black bears are not dangerous, they just want food - simply scare them off. Grizzlies are dangerous - carry bear spray if you spend time in Grizzly country and make noise when you walk through places where you might suddenly come upon a bear - like a bell on your backpack. Obviously there are more precautions to be taken with bears, but they aren't really relevant to climbing.

Moose are dangerous - but not often found near climbing areas, don't go near them and run if they charge.

The chance of being attacked by a mountain lion, as an adult, is virtually nil - they sometimes attack children and smaller women, usually while they are walking or jogging at dusk. There are no recorded cases of mountain lions ever attacking a group of three people or more - I believe this is true for grizzlies as well.

Don't step on rattlesnakes - they will bite you if you do. Watch where you step, avoid walking in tall grass, and don't stick your hand into holes/in between logs. Something like 90% of rattlesnake bites are on males between the age of 18 and 25, somewhere on the hand or forearm - you can imagine how this might happen.

2/3 of people that are killed with a gun in the US are killed with a gun they own, usually by someone they know. The most dangerous animals in the backcountry are humans.

And as other people have pointed out - you're a lot more likely to be injured in your car on the way to your outdoor destination than you are to be attacked by an animal - unless you live in New Mexico, then you have to watch out for jackalopes, chupacabras, and gapers - like gumbys, but with a smaller range - the intermountain west.

I read through the list of bear killings for the last three decades (posted above). There were actually more than I expected, but the vast majority were in Canada and Ak. In the lower 48, most attacks happened in Glacier Nat Park and Yellowstone. Outside of those areas, there is about a death per 10 years. Seems like you can pretty safely plan your safety measures to suit your region.

I've encountered bears in Ak. Once I had bear spray, but never had to use it. Every other time, I was fine just by being loud. I carried a gun once on a solo backing trip in MT, didn't see any bears, and probably could not have effectively used it to defend myself anyways. While hiking, it was in the brain of my pack. I couldn't have reached it in an emergency. It was just extra weight from for me. (I was young and dumb.)

I carry a gun in the truck while car camping, but that is 100% intended as protection against humans, usually the confederate-flag-flying drunk variety. I've had two scary human encounters the last couple years.