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Is leaving your dog at the base of multipitch climb really Animal abuse?

Jack Quarless · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

Again, if immigrants from the Midwest and East Coast stop moving to Boulder and stop sniffing their own farts I bet this stops being a problem.

1800Doctorb · · GJ, CO · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 0

Clearly you can't read.

Didn't even mention the BST (you made that shit up) just City Creek between Memory Grove and Bonneville Blvd. But gosh, I really think you should take that picture next time yer out. I can give you directions if you like..

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

Alexey Dynkin

The point is, it's up to the owner to decide, not you, not the passive observer. Until they make a law against it, its none your damn business. That's the whole idea I'm pushing. I may not even agree with have the shit I'm spewing, just playing devil's advocate to make a point.

It's not up for anyone, especially all us assholes on mountainproject, myself included, to start telling other people what to do with their, dog, baby, pack, breath, etc...

Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
Tom Sherman wrote:Alexey Dynkin The point is, it's up to the owner to decide, not you, not the passive observer. Until they make a law against it, its none your damn business. That's the whole idea I'm pushing. I may not even agree with have the shit I'm spewing, just playing devil's advocate to make a point. It's not up for anyone, especially all us assholes on mountainproject, myself included, to start telling other people what to do with their, dog, baby, pack, breath, etc...
I agree with that to an extent. If the question is strictly between how one person chooses to interact with their dog, then you might have a point (though I still reserve the right to call that person a shitty dog owner). However, as many others have mentioned, the other part of the equation of pet ownership responsibility is the social expectations and etiquette associated with it. And, like it or not, climbing is essentially a social activity - certainly so in a busy place like Eldo. And that means it's no more acceptable to leave your dog tied to the bottom of a multi-pitch route, than it is to leave it tied to a street sign at a busy intersection while you go to work. And no more OK to let your dog run free at the base of the wall, than let it hang out in the city all day! Am I going to be the vigilante who calls animal control in either case? Nah, not really my style. But I sure as hell wouldn't wish that kind of owner on any dog.

To conclude: the answer to the OP's question: "Is leaving your dog at the base of multipitch climb really Animal abuse?" In most cases yes, or borderline...and in pretty much all cases, completely unacceptable.
Steve Marshall · · Concord NH · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45
Alexey Dynkin wrote: it's no more acceptable to leave your dog tied to the bottom of a multi-pitch route, than it is to leave it tied to a street sign at a busy intersection while you go to work. And no more OK to let your dog run free at the base of the wall, than let it hang out in the city all day!
I can't even
curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 274
Sir chuffs alot wrote:Again, if immigrants from the Midwest and East Coast stop moving to Boulder and stop sniffing their own farts I bet this stops being a problem.
i bet you have a "native" sticker on your subaru
cragmantoo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 175

I think the intent of the OP was to make people think about the practice of climbers leaving a dog unattended for an extended period of time in a public area and whether it somehow endngers the animal. I am of the opinion that it is a bad idea but am not going to call it outright abuse.

This thread, in typical MP fashion, has spun out of control, drifted off subject at times, rambled on for pages of repetive discussion and deteriorated into name calling and general ugliness.

Tom-onator · · trollfreesociety · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 790

HO LEE SHITE!!

What a clustamafuck we have here!

Can I leave my pet hamster tied to a tree (with enough food, water, and newspaper scraps for nest building) while I multipitch climb?

Boissal . · · Small Lake, UT · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 1,541
spencerparkin wrote:The specific example I'm thinking of is the I-street trail-head (BST) above the Avenues
moturner wrote: City Creek is an SLC watershed, and above the dam, dogs are prohibited. Below the dam, dogs are allowed. In Memory Grove, with the exception of the grassy area, dogs are allowed off leash. Sorry dood. I live on Canyon, with a dog, and thems the rules, actually.


spencerparkin wrote:Clearly you haven't read the sign at the BST trail-head
moturner wrote: Clearly you can't read. Didn't even mention the BST (you made that shit up) just City Creek between Memory Grove and Bonneville Blvd
Let's see here...
Specific mention of the I-street trailhead: check.
You ignore it and go off about a different area (City Creek / Memory Grove): check.
Attempt to clarify that you're thinking of a different trailhead: check.
You accuse someone of not being able to read since you never mentioned that trailhead.

Time to insert your foot in your dumb mouth.
Also, there is a "no off-leash dogs" sign at the trailhead Spencer mentioned.
1800Doctorb · · GJ, CO · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 0

Boissal-

Fair enough, but he made reference to the City Creek watershed, and last time I checked, there is an off-leash dog park in City Creek, just upstream of Memory Grove. Upstream of Bonneville Blvd, he is absolutely correct. Like I said, I live there.

I didn't go on the offensive, and never once said that he was wrong about any sign at any BST trailhead. He 'made up' that I mentioned the BST and said offleash dogs are cool there, which I never did. This was before he was saying 'clearly Ive never read......'

I didn't start a fight dood, so don't go on the offensive due to any perceived/real miscommunication in which you had no stake anyways

The only points I really wanted to make were:

1) Yes, there are places to have dogs off leash in City Creek, and
2) People find just about anything to get pissed off over, i.e being inconvenienced by the behavior of others

Peace

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Alexey Dynkin wrote: To conclude: the answer to the OP's question: "Is leaving your dog at the base of multipitch climb really Animal abuse?" In most cases yes, or borderline...and in pretty much all cases, completely unacceptable.
Totally a first world problem. Just eat the beast and be done with it.
tenpins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 30
ViperScale wrote: The fact that you are keeping a animal that should be in the wild as a pet is probably an issue to begin with. Given alot of them have had the wild breed out of them but still.
canis familiaris is not simply a few shades removed from a wolf. They've *evolved* _with humans_ for at least 100,000 years.

They are communal animals, not pack animals. You might find a herd of once domestic dogs (as I observed countless times in iraq) who are now ownerless. They never truly regress/ascend back into a pack social structure aka wolves.

I can strongly recommend the book Inside a Dog
Bob Dobalina · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 140

My dog regularly follows me to the base of multipitch climbs (often times, remote desert towers) and patiently waits for me unleashed by my gear. If I'm out of his sight for hours I'll yell his name once in a while to let him know that I'm OK and haven't forgotten about him.
I always set out food and water and make sure that there is shade for him nearby.
He's pretty smart and will always seek out shade for chilling. He was raised camping and climbing and finds it completely natural to be along with me on most of my adventures.

Of course I would never do this at a popular crag though.

Bio80 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2015 · Points: 0

Leaving your pet to roam free and unsupervised can have a huge impact on local wildlife. A recent, especially shitty example was an unsupervised pet In calico that dug up and chewed a desert tortoise out of a burrow. That tortoise eventually had to be euthanized. If the owner had been around even partially checking on what their pet was doing the adult tortoise would have lived. It looked like it was chewed on for quite awhile before anyone intervened. Just sayin, off leash isn't the answer to the animal cruelty question. I for one would prefer a slightly unhappy leashed animal or climber choosing to single pitch in order to be a good dog owner than to see wildlife harassed.

Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

I don't especially think its cruel to the dog at all but some common sense should be used. Put the water and food bowl where it can't be spilled (down in some rocks maybe). Shade is obvious if it's hot - out of any rockfall zone - not where it might bite someone trying to just walk on the trail - just normal stuff is all. But the biggie - at least to me - is the dog itself and how it behaves alone. Just because your dog is friendly to you does NOT mean it is going to be friendly to all that pass by on the trail - I once saw an entire area of cliff line shut down by a Husky tied on the trail who was going to bite anyone that got near it. When it's owner came down, the dog was as friendly as could be. If your dog starts barking when you leave the ground and continues until you get back - that's not enjoyable to either the dog (I imagine anyway) and especially to the people nearby. The fact that you "can" take your dog everywhere doesn't mean you "should". Dogs vary - just like owners.

John Maurer · · Denver, CO · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 530

Depends on the dog, depends on the area, depends a lot of variables that could really only be looked at in hindsight and not planned for. In 27 years of climbing, there are places I used to take my dog, Kenya, but wouldn't even consider taking my dog (Orbit or Ghost - but never both given their disruptive teamwork tendencies) now. Eldo is one of those places - even the West Ridge. Having a dog means you have to make a few concessions for the sake of the sport and other users, especially along the Front Range. You don't really "have to" do anything, but not considering how your actions or inaction might be impacting others, who's day is just as important as yours, makes it pretty clear how you determine reality (and in population centers that inevitably builds conflict).

If it's Worm Drive at Vedauwoo or a remote locale in the South Platte, then I'm definitely bringing one along - but I wouldn't leave either dog for even a two-pitch route. It would be unsettling and cruel for either of my current dogs. So I adjust my plans if I take my dog, or plan around taking my dog. If they were to misbehave, I'd work to find a solution (maybe go for a trail run for a bit with him) if it was impacting the experience (even someone else's).

Dogs are pack animals, some dogs love to have a job (which could be watching the pack and napping patiently), and dogs being left behind while the rest of the pack is off hunting is a pretty instinctual connection for a young dog to make. I guarantee you if you polled the dogs in question, they would overwhelmingly want to come along to the crag. Dogs are really bad at returning poll data, so I wouldn't waste your time canvassing.

Anyway, it's funny how this issue seemingly seeks to polarize, when we've all seen countless examples of what is right, what is truly just wrong, and everything in between.

Ghost (the Blue/Red Heeler) and Orbit GoboTRON Megablast perusing routes on an investigatory climbing area behavior hike.

John Maurer · · Denver, CO · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 530
DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

Went and climbed a multi-pitch last week. Tied my dog up at the bottom with a long leash, food, and water. Didn't hear a peep from her the entire time we were on the wall. Came back 3 hours later and she was just chillin, laying down, gnawing on a stick. The crag was a low traffic crag (we were one of only 2 groups there all day.) My dog is a young Siberian Husky. It's all about how your dog is trained, where you are, the weather, etc. Please don't make rash generalizations about pet owners. My dog loves going climbing with me more than anything, and having to wait at the base of a climb for a few hours is a small price to pay to get to run around the woods with her dad the rest of the day.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

The only thing I have learned from this thread about leaving your dog at the base of a multipitch climb is... yes, you can and no, you should not.

I would have to say it appears we have a stalemate here on MP. A lot of holier-than-thou types too, but it would not be the same without.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
DrRockso wrote:Went and climbed a multi-pitch last week. Tied my dog up at the bottom with a long leash, food, and water. Didn't hear a peep from her the entire time we were on the wall. Came back 3 hours later and she was just chillin, laying down, gnawing on a stick. The crag was a low traffic crag (we were one of only 2 groups there all day.) My dog is a young Siberian Husky. It's all about how your dog is trained, where you are, the weather, etc. Please don't make rash generalizations about pet owners. My dog loves going climbing with me more than anything, and having to wait at the base of a climb for a few hours is a small price to pay to get to run around the woods with her dad the rest of the day.
Again, what the dog owners are forgetting is that anyone else happening by doesn't know a damned thing about your dog or what it will do.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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