double clove hitches

rgold wrote:Budd, it was second-hand by the time it got here. Your beef, if you have one, is with the Dumbass anchors guy.

No beef here dude. honestly it's good to have feedback and learn some new things. I was just surprised see Dumbass anchors dude go to that effort without actually trying to talk to us about it. just seems weaselly

Budd Rick wrote: No beef here dude. honestly it's good to have feedback and learn some new things. I was just surprised see Dumbass anchors dude go to that effort without actually trying to talk to us about it. just seems weaselly

If it makes you feel better Budd, I'd whip on that shit.

Miike wrote: If it makes you feel better Budd, I'd whip on that shit.

me too

Me three. Something to be said for a quick and dirty solution that gets the job done without compromising serious safety. Is there a better solution? Yea. Is that going to fail ever, highly unlikly. Would I do that again? Probably not. In that situation I would have used a bowline with two wraps to prevent it from getting really welded. Just as quick, slightly more "textbook", whatever that means.

Climbing Mags are getting into the "intraweb shaming" action .... sometimes it boomerangs on em =P

CLimbing Mag

That is an excellent question, anonymous. I have been starring at this photo for the past 10 minutes, and I only have more questions. What are those quickdraws doing? Why do the quickdraws have locking carabiners? Are those four figure eights supposed to be pre-rigged for the clients? Is that why they're clipped to the bolts? And if they are pre-rigged, why does only one strand wrap around each descender, when both strands run through the holes? Are those four separate figure eight descenders, or two super figure eights I've never seen before? If those descenders are not pre-rigged and, in fact, part of the anchor, then how do they plan to clean it? What's that bunny ears figure eight knot doing? (That one may be unrelated, but I am curious.) Again, what are those quickdraws doing? And finally, am I the crazy one? Is this a brilliant method for rappelling large groups that I just can't decipher? I am honestly not sure.
One thing I know for sure is that this anchor is not Timely, from the ERNEST acronym of anchor evaluation (Equalized, Redundant, Non-Extending, Strong, and Timely). Nor is it redundant. If one of those bolts blows, the climber is going to hit the ground. There are two bolts, it never hurts to cover your bases and use them both. It's also nice when an anchor is simple enough that it can be judged and understood quickly. An easier way to accomplish this in the pictured scenario would be to run a rope through both of the anchor bolts, center it, tie knots in the end of each strand, toss the strands to the ground, and then set up your rappel. Of course, pre-rigging the less experienced members in the group is a great idea. Here's the method we like. And here's a video guide to extending and backing up rappels for safe descents.

and a bit latter

UPDATE: As our readers have pointed out, the above setup is completely belayvable, that is to say, acceptable. This is a rappel system called a Joker. It's used in canyoneering and allows the user to easily switch between rappelling and lowering. The canyoneer rappels down one strand. If they get into a situation where they need assistance, their partner can take over the job and descend them. The quickdraw, which may look superfluous, actually prevents the rope from falling off the the figure eight descenders should something go wrong. Canyoneering is a complex topic and beyond the scope of our coverage. What may look irresponsible to a rock climber, may be common and acceptable to a canyoneer. For a more in depth explanation of the nuts and bolts of this setup, check out the Joker page on RopeWiki.
In the interest of honesty, and so you can laugh at my ignorance, the original text of the article is below. I apologize for the mistake and fully admit that I am not a canyoneer.


as i said previously, if these folks REALLY wanted to make things "safer" for the folks at the crag, they would have a polite conversation with those who set up the anchors

after all if its "unsafe" enough for one to post up and make a big fuss about it online ... youre basically letting them "kill themselves" while you rant about it on da intrawebz if you dont talk to em

;)

Stich wrote: Hands down the strongest anchor you can build on a tree with a rope. Since it relies on friction wraps, it retains the full strength of the rope.

these are pretty strong

strong1

strong2

bearbreeder wrote:Climbing Mags are getting into the "intraweb shaming" action .... sometimes it boomerangs on em =P

haha awesome.

I also enjoys that s/he refers to canyoneering as complex topic. Compared to trad or alpine climbing, most canyoneering is a sinch.

This month on dumb ass anchors...

I learned that everything is wrong. Who would ever trust their life to a nylon sling rated to 22 kN and locker? For shame! Look at this sloppy mess!

sloppy, poorly built anchor and OMG only one locker!!!

Buff Johnson wrote: these are pretty strong

I think you are talking about the same anchor as him.

matt c. wrote: Look at this sloppy mess!

yeah, 5 more lockers fer sure would do it

For fifty years, I have used the method shown in the above photo "strong 1". Suggestion: use only the knot that you are confident of, and use it every time.

I just browsed that dumb anchors site….the guy's captions are pretty irritating. Who died and made him chief anchor inspector? 90% of those anchors are fine. Seems like he needs to get a life and do some more climbing than hanging out at the top of a TR cliff.

Danbo1957 wrote:For fifty years, I have used the method shown in the above photo "strong 1". Suggestion: use only the knot that you are confident of, and use it every time.

What this guy says.
Simple is better.
For me, life is too short for such silliness as ACR/quad gear achors, contrived tree anchors, and anything other than the simplest connection to fixed anchors, that being more situationally dependent...
Anchor-nerdery = time you will never get back.

Br'er Rabbit wrote: Anchor-nerdery = time you will never get back.

my thought as well. of course spending mass amounts of time on the internet typing up long winded explanations of wrapping a rope around a tree/rock may be even worse but WTH

- Tensionless hitch
- alpine butterfly
- 8
- 9
- clove (tie a back up overhand if you are unsure?)

Either way Yer Guna Dye!

On the surface, my issue with the anchor in the OP is it renders the rope by itself useless and then introduces an unnecessary single-point-of-failure rigging element. The net effect over just a knot is a compounding of risk in a trade-off which delivers dubious benefit at best. Is that such big a deal or likely to fail? No.

The real problem I see here isn't with the rig so much as the thinking which went into it. Will that rig maim or kill you? No. But once one gets into long, hard multipitch trad under less then ideal circumstances such lack of appropriate response in terms of problems & solutions might very well maim or kill you.

Danbo1957 wrote:For fifty years, I have used the method shown in the above photo "strong 1". Suggestion: use only the knot that you are confident of, and use it every time.

I dunno, here's another suggestion: learn to use the appropriate knot for the task at hand. In the case of 'strong 1', it has two unnecessary wraps around the tree and that's a less than ideal application of a figure eight on a bight. A straight bowline with a backup overhand would be a simpler response and one without the undesirable friction between the rope and the bight of the figure eight.

Going back to OP why not tie a knot. Or not?

About the OP,

It looks fine under tension, bit I wouldn't use it because when unloaded you could easily end up with minor axis loading. Plenty of stronger simpler options.

On an additional note RE: The QD guide anchor using eights...

Canyoneering does stuff like this on occasion. The QD is for redundancy and to reduce shockloading.

The eights isolate each strand of rope to set up single rope rappels on either side. This can be done after the rope has already been set up for rappel, as has been done here. This is definitely a group rappeling set up.

Not saying I would use this, but it does have the advantage of also not having to untie a knot after 6 people have rapped it in a canyoneering scenario.

Search stone eight for more on this anchor.

Healyje wrote:I dunno, here's another suggestion: learn to use the appropriate knot for the task at hand. In the case of 'strong 1', it has two unnecessary wraps around the tree and that's a less than ideal application of a figure eight on a bight. A straight bowline with a backup overhand would be a simpler response and one without the undesirable friction between the rope and the bight of the figure eight.

bitching about "strong 1" or "strong 2" is similar to bitching about the type of toilet paper you wipe with.

;)