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Textbook cam placements can pull in smooth stone

Ray Hellinger · · Gunnison, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 350

The rock is smooth. The placement is good. I've placed, and fallen, on plenty of placements just like that. The question I would ask, is what is the status of the spring mechanism in the cam. If it old, or the springs are gummed up, it may not be providing an outward force when weighted.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

Springs can prevent walking (and they provide the [trivial] outward force to hold the cam when unweighted), but they don't provide outward force when *weighted:* the weight of the climber does. I think you're misunderstanding the action of an SLCD, Ray?

Ray Hellinger · · Gunnison, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 350

No, I understand it completely.....if the springs are not functioning, the lobes do not push out to make contact with the rock, and when you weight it, it pulls. That is most likely the explanation for the cam in the video.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

Hmm... that scenario seems extremely unlikely to me, Ray.

The springs are strong enough to hold the cam in place, and indeed they look completely fine in the video, yet week enough to somehow negate the ability of the cam cables to pull down on the lobes, and thus rotate the cam lobes into the rock, and securing it when weighted or fallen upon?

I would need some major convincing to believe that. Do you have experience with this?

To me, it seems that the springs would have to be so bad that the cam would be obviously wobbly and wonky in the placement. Otherwise, they are strong enough to do their job (which is pretty minimal). Am I off base?

This really looks like a slam dunk case of very slippery rock to me.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Healyje wrote: Hmmm, almost don't know what to make of that. Depending on the cliff Eldo is bomb for all kinds of pro. Never had a cam of any kind pull or move on me there. Had one explode into a million pieces there, but never had one pull.
say what? i met you a few years ago and you said you had only done one route in eldo in the mid 70's. not sure what cams you were using...
Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330
slim wrote: say what? i met you a few years ago and you said you had only done one route in eldo in the mid 70's. not sure what cams you were using...
One of these most likely......

cam
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
slim wrote: say what? i met you a few years ago and you said you had only done one route in eldo in the mid 70's. not sure what cams you were using...
Yeah, the 'Makanda Traverse' which basically went from below the start of Rosy Crucifixtion over to Yellow Spur and finished up on it. Pre-cams, just nuts. Made it to Yellow Spur with one nut for the belay. But then I didn't really trust any anchors back then and basically stanced all the belays whenever possible by and large avoiding weighting anchors even when holding solid lead falls. So it wasn't that big a deal and wasn't all that uncommon to end up with just one or two nuts for the belay. Also hip belayed all the routes on our to Eldo trips in the 70's - didn't care much for belay devices back then either.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Healyje wrote: Yeah, the 'Makanda Traverse' which basically went from below the start of Rosy Crucifixtion over to Yellow Spur and finished up on it. Pre-cams, just nuts. Made it to Yellow Spur with one nut for the belay. But then I didn't really trust any anchors back then and basically stanced all the belays whenever possible by and large avoiding weighting anchors even when holding solid lead falls. So it wasn't that big a deal and wasn't all that uncommon to end up with just one or two nuts for the belay. Also hip belayed all the routes on our to Eldo trips in the 70's - didn't care much for belay devices back then either.
damn Joe, your memory sure is good for an old timer!

I didnt care much for sex, drugs and rock-n-roll but I eventually got used to it
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
slim wrote: say what? i met you a few years ago and you said you had only done one route in eldo in the mid 70's. not sure what cams you were using...
Slim, misread what you wrote. When I said I'd only 'done' one route in Eldo, I meant I'd only done one FA, not that I'd only climbed one route. We climbed all over the place. The Bastille Crack was my first roped solo in '75 in fact. Went back not long ago and did it again after about 30 years and it was like being in a frigging time machine...

Miike wrote: damn Joe, your memory sure is good for an old timer! I didnt care much for sex, drugs and rock-n-roll but I eventually got used to it
Similar to my experience. It took a couple of decades to learn to climb reasonably hard without them, and I can do it; it's just suboptimal at best.
Paul Davidson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 607
Charles Vernon wrote:What I'm taking away from this is that two experienced climbers both thought this was a solid piece that would hold a fall, and they were both wrong, which suggests that there's a lesson for other experienced climbers here.
+1 - some of that lower Lemmon rock is ultra-smooth but this is eye opening.
rob.calm · · Loveland, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 630
rgold wrote: I think that the almost universal practice of notching cam lobes is intended to leverage potential roughness interactions. I think the message from research on the subject is that until you get up to loads of geological magnitude, the roughness of the surfaces matters far more than the materials, and so speaking as if there is a coefficient of friction between, say, granite and aluminum is far from illuminating.
A historical note.

When Friends first came out decades ago, one could write to their inventor, Ray Jardine, if you had questions. The grooves on one of my Friends had worn smooth. I wrote to Ray. He replied and said not to worry as they have more friction that way like a climbing shoe or the tires on a drag racer. The grooves were mainly cosmetic.

Rob.calm
adrian korosec · · tucson, az · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 145

Thanks Andrew, now I'm going to be paranoid of all my cam placements! (Seriously, thank you! )

Matt Hartman · · Leavenworth WA · Joined May 2007 · Points: 240

Someone should chop all Andrew Megas Russell's bolts in the stronghold for this fear mongering

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Do people really need a long winded alarmist thread to understand that smooth rock is slippery? The thread title itself is an oxymoron. A cam placed in smooth, slick rock is not textbook.

In another thread we are going to hear that tires slip on icy roads.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Greg D wrote:Do people really need a long winded alarmist thread to understand that smooth rock is slippery? The thread title itself is an oxymoron. A cam placed in smooth, slick rock is not textbook. In another thread we are going to hear that tires slip on icy roads.
yes but dont they make specialized tires for that? ;)
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

^^^. In another thread some people believe specialized tires will never slip in icy conditions. I think we are seeing a pattern here.

WyomingSummits · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
Ryan M Moore wrote:I took my first fall on trad gear on a similar placement with slick rock(mine was slightly more flaring, but not much more). Weighted the piece and it popped. Fortunately my tri cam 7 feet below held, still ended up being a 15 foot fall.
This is why I look for a tri, stopper, or hex before a cam any day. The guy who mentored me refused to let me place cams until I was leading multipitch routes with passive pro only. Do cams have their place? You bet! But I'll run out a good passive piece any day over the best placed cam in the grittiest of granite.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
rgold wrote:The jerk test saved the OP from something potentially much worse. Known slippery rock or not, I'm a firm believer in testing most cam placements with one or more vigorous jerks---not just a mild peremptory tug. For one thing, the theory says that if the cam can withstand such a jerk, it will also withstand a fall load. (Of course the theory does not account for cam motion, rock crumbling, and lobe deformation, so sadly the jerk test is not conclusive, it is only evidence in the right direction.)
I find it incredible that some people don't test jerk all their cam placements. (Nuts too most of the time, though the size of the jerk may depend on how much you like your seconder.)

This saved me the other day. I put a cam into a solid seam in solid rock, changed my mind and then put in a 0.3 C4 which fit perfectly. I gave it a good tug as I was about to step past. The entire crack opened and the cam came out! This placement was actually in a barely attached flake, though I would not expect most observers at this crag would call it a flake.

I've observed and even tapped on plenty of hollow sounding flakes. Often gear gets placed behind such items and even safely takes falls. Though you approach such items with the caution they deserve. This was terrifying though because there was no indication that this large section of rock was not an integral part of the cliff.

My seconder agreed and was similarly terrified when with little force he removed a 10kg piece of rock off the wall and then had to stuff it into a backpack as the base was crowded and not withing sight.

WyomingSummits wrote: This is why I look for a tri, stopper, or hex before a cam any day. The guy who mentored me refused to let me place cams until I was leading multipitch routes with passive pro only. Do cams have their place? You bet! But I'll run out a good passive piece any day over the best placed cam in the grittiest of granite.
I agree that mastering passive pro is important and teaches your more about placements than cams. Though cams are trustworthy in most rock so I like their plug and go nature. Still, the rock I climb eats nuts so I normally carry 25+ nuts on my rack. (double set + micros)
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236

Your all talking about smooth hard rock. What about much softer rock such as sandstone...I have had lots of cams pull on this type of rock.. I much prefer any type of nut placements to cams.

Scott O · · Anchorage · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 70

I know I'm late to this game, but I would trust a placement like the one in the OP anywhere in Yosemite.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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