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Silent Partner Leading...

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Any time you tie a rebelay directly into the rope, ie not using a releasable system (rubber band) or one-way system, you effectively have less rope in the system after the rebelay and will increase the fall factor should you fall.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Travis Haussener wrote: Also if you want a true rebelay couldn't you also build another three point anchor tie it off and keep going?
As has been just been said, this would increase the fall factor. And 9 times out of 10 you won't want to do this. However, sometimes the belay won't be perfect and you might then tie off a bomber piece as a backup part way up the pitch. Very occasionally you might also tie off a piece so you don't fall so far on rope stretch. E.g. you are 50m out from the belay, making a move above a ledge. You might then tie a piece off at the ledge, and treat the rock above a mini-pitch and place lots of runners.

Because you don't get rope drag when soloing, it is more common to complete very long pitches so if you fall you can go a long way on stretch.

I will often climb say 50m to a belay, simply clove hitch the rope to a bolt at the belay, but then carry on for 20m to the next belay if the pitch is easy. This is a great way to remove all those short connecting pitches of easy ground in alpine routes
Travis Haussener · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

Thanks guys, I was playing around with the rubber band idea last night, and so far that worked for me, at least in concept. Most of my routes are no more then 20-30 m anyway. As of right now the SP is used only for cragginf for me.

nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718
David Coley wrote: As has been just been said, this would increase the fall factor. And 9 times out of 10 you won't want to do this. However, sometimes the belay won't be perfect and you might then tie off a bomber piece as a backup part way up the pitch. Very occasionally you might also tie off a piece so you don't fall so far on rope stretch. E.g. you are 50m out from the belay, making a move above a ledge. You might then tie a piece off at the ledge, and treat the rock above a mini-pitch and place lots of runners. Because you don't get rope drag when soloing, it is more common to complete very long pitches so if you fall you can go a long way on stretch. I will often climb say 50m to a belay, simply clove hitch the rope to a bolt at the belay, but then carry on for 20m to the next belay if the pitch is easy. This is a great way to remove all those short connecting pitches of easy ground in alpine routes
Several good points here. Especially about sometimes not wanting too much rope stretch. When I'm climbing alone and have no one that can take up slack when I fall, this is a serious consideration. The key is not setting it up where you're likely to fall. Rope soloing (free-climbing) is all about planning ahead.

A good compromise is to do this: Instead of clipping the re-belay directly into the piece, try slinging the piece with a long runner (shoulder/double-shoulder length) and clipping into the end with a clove hitch. Adjust so that the line between this and the anchor is taut. Then clip the rope through the top biner (gear-end) as if you would normally. This will allow for a reasonable amount of stretch (length of runner used), but also give you a back-up. This situation arises commonly when there is not an adequate anchor on the ground and you need something else.

Also, instead of using those prussik/rubber band set-ups, I've found it more convenient to simply tie a stopper knot above the piece you clip into using an overhand on bight(or whatever). The same can be done for the free end of the rope to lighten the feed -- just be careful and put the knot on the correct end. Personally I'm not a fan of carrying all that extra cordage.
A good compromise, especially useful on less than vertical terrain.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

One big difference between using an SP for free and for aid is that in aid you rap the haul line, with free climbing you rap the climbing rope. This means that when free climbing you will have removed all the re-belays on the rap, but with aid climbing you won't have. Hence with aid climbing the re-belays need to be ok to jug up on (or auto snap off like rubber bands).

Trent Mahaffey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 15

Can someone please clarify the point of tying in a prusik or a figure eight into an anchor to prevent the rope from generating excess slack? Is this what people area also referring to as establishing a re-belay?

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
WaterBoy wrote:Can someone please clarify the point of tying in a prusik or a figure eight into an anchor to prevent the rope from generating excess slack? Is this what people area also referring to as establishing a re-belay?
Yes, that is a re-belay. If you do not do this on the anchor side occasionally the weight of the rope will pull it through the device and lead to slack on the anchor side. THis excess slack on the anchor side will result in longer falls. A prussik or other friction knot will allow the re-belay to still let the rope stretch and not increase the fall factor. Tying a knot to the pro is quicker and easier, but removes the rope below the protection from the fall equation and increases the fall factor.

WIth the SP, it is also important to manage the rope on the non0anchor side. If that gets too heavy, it will prevent the device from feeding well. So in addition to the obvious benefit of backup knots, your backup knots will also help manage the rope weight on the non-anchor side.
Chris Topher · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 5

HI, I haven't read all comments above, so apologies if I'm stating the obvious or restating something. I suspect it would be a very, very rare occasion where I thought I should tie the rope into a piece of pro or a sport bolt to prevent slack from piling up back at the anchor, or to prevent me from hitting a ledge.

If you tie the rope into the trad pro (whether directly or onto the quickdrawer), and then you fall on the next piece/s above you, you risk pulling out that lower piece of pro...not a good thing to do.

If you're SP-soloing a sport climb, while you won't pull the bolt out, you will (as has been pointed out above) make for a really hard 'catch' when you fall later.

I would most probably only ever use bands or prussiks as re-belays.

Although I can see the point that you might think you are going to hit a ledge because there is too much slack in the system (as is mentioned above), I would probably only ever mitigate that risk in one particular way ("probably", because to me it depends on just how desperate things are).

I'd tie the rebelay (using a friction hitch...klemheist or prussik) as per usual; then I would FULLY weight the rope, taking out as much slack as possible, and reposition the friction hitch accordingly, so that the anchor-side rope is now very, very taught (noting that there would be now significantly less stretch being available in the system for a fall).

In that tightening process, I would 'reverse batman' on the anchor-side rope i.e. pull HARD upwards on the anchor-side rope, as my body weight fed rope through the drawer/runner...then slide the friction hitch downwards, locking that tightness (in the anchor-side rope) into the system.

Any thoughts anyone?
Chris

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Chris, all very logical, but just to say that unless it's aid or you happen to get lucky, it can be difficult to tie anything more than a clove hitch whilst hanging on.

Febs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 5
David Coley wrote:Chris, all very logical, but just to say that unless it's aid or you happen to get lucky, it can be difficult to tie anything more than a clove hitch whilst hanging on.
So true.

Also, I'd personally rather take a factor 2 fall than hitting a ledge.
Toni Stey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 60

Do the backup knots need to be attached to a fall-rated part of the harness? If carrying the rope in a backpack, is there a way to do this without at least one long loop of rope hanging off your harness (as in the picture below)?

Silent partner backup knot

Or can be backup knots be attached to gear loops or nothing at all, under the assumption that the knot will jam up the device in a fall. (Thereby reducing rope cluster)

Silent partner backup knot

Not sure I completely understand the failure mechanism of the device.

Alexander K · · The road · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 130

Tying knots without clipping them should be fine as the failure would be the clutch not engaging and the rope running freely through the device. Clipping the knots into the belay loop (or with a biner at all) is very impractical.

Alexander K · · The road · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 130

But a knot of any size can't pull through the clove hitch, therefore it's fine (it has nothing to do with the metal housing). It becomes very apparent how well they work when you forget to untie one.

Chris Topher · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 5
Alexander K wrote:But a knot of any size can't pull through the clove hitch, therefore it's fine (it has nothing to do with the metal housing). It becomes very apparent how well they work when you forget to untie one.
I was wondering about the likelihood of backpack knots pulling through the clove hitch, once your fall speed builds up. I can't see an overhand on a bite pulling through. What else is there?

But even so, the backpack weight pulling me away from the cliff means I prefer the trailing loop method.

And I only now use one loop. I find it easier to rest at my next quickdrawer and quickly retie the safety loop (after I've adjusted the loop length for the next anticipated fall), than to have more than one (pre-tied) trailing loop.
Toni Stey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 60

Are there Silent Partner failure mechanisms other than clutch failure?

For example, with a Grigri, there is a real possibility of the biner crossloading and breaking (there have been multiple instances of this), which would mean the jam method wouldn't work, because the knot would jam in a device which is no longer attached to you.

There is also the possibility of the device getting torqued in some strange way and the plate breaking (which has happened to people who have taken whippers on traxions).

The SP seems like it's more robust to those specific occurrences, but are there others that are less obvious?

Febs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 5
Toni Stey wrote:Are there Silent Partner failure mechanisms other than clutch failure?
To me it failed in cold conditions. Below freezing point and in absence of any water - I specify so because the manual explicitly states that it can't be used in subfreezing conditions since water freeze inside the device, thus not allowing the mechanism to work.

But in my case, the temperature was above freezing and the setting was totally dry.

Here I demonstrate it:
youtube.com/watch?v=MswDdel…

There's a thread on supertopo.com where this has been discussed. Some users have been able to reproduce the issue with their SP by leaving it in the fridge for some time, others weren't.
My theory is that in some units they used some kind of lubricant (that is, grease) that hardens below certain temperatures and does not allow the mechanism to lock.

Here's the thread:
supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

I asked for the unit to be serviced but since it couldn't be shipped to Europe I got a refund instead of a replacement (I got it through a travelling friend).

I think I'll move to gri-gri soloing, although I'd miss the SP that was an issue too big to bear. In alpine climbs temperatures go often that low, especially in the morning.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

I'm happy to see this thread still going after starting it many years ago. I have since sold my SP to a friend who wanted to do easy sport climbs, as demo'd in the page 1 video. Not sure if he ever used it that way and I did repeatedly remind him this is NOT the way it is intended to be used.

My main conclusion for the SP is that it's just not worth it for free climbing. Looks ideal for aid however. To use it as directed is cumbersome and to use it as I experimented is still cumbersome and kinda scary considering the possibility that it might not lock. I've been more comfortable just soloing a little bit lower grade without the hassle of using this device. The whole thing just never felt right to me, no matter what setup I used. I would rather move efficiently and fast soloing a 5.6 then mess with the SP on a 5.10.

My advice is to find a partner(s), go to the gym, meet more people, work to find a good partner or just mentor someone to make one. The SP is fun to mess with but doesn't replace a good partner whom has more value than just holding the rope.

nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718

I also had problems with the SP -- one of the first batches on the market (in the late 90's I think). After using it for a short time it got to where it wouldn't lock at all (normal temperatures, etc.), and I repeatedly fell to my back-up knots during several test runs. I promptly sent it back, the problem was verified and attributed to a manufacturing/painting process that had since been corrected. Can't remember the exact details. However, after it was repaired, I had the opposite problem -- it would lock up prematurely (not cool when you're free-climbing). So I sent it back again, the same issue was acknowledged and it was repaired.

Needless to say, I quit using it after that and reverted back to the soloist -- which in my opinion, is better for hard free climbing anyway, despite its nuances.

With all that being said, I have known several climbers in recent years that climb hard on the SP and fall a lot. The device works very well for them with no issues.

Febs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 5
Tradoholic wrote:I'm happy to see this thread still going after starting it many years ago. I have since sold my SP to a friend who wanted to do easy sport climbs, as demo'd in the page 1 video. Not sure if he ever used it that way and I did repeatedly remind him this is NOT the way it is intended to be used. My main conclusion for the SP is that it's just not worth it for free climbing. Looks ideal for aid however. To use it as directed is cumbersome and to use it as I experimented is still cumbersome and kinda scary considering the possibility that it might not lock. I've been more comfortable just soloing a little bit lower grade without the hassle of using this device. The whole thing just never felt right to me, no matter what setup I used. I would rather move efficiently and fast soloing a 5.6 then mess with the SP on a 5.10. My advice is to find a partner(s), go to the gym, meet more people, work to find a good partner or just mentor someone to make one. The SP is fun to mess with but doesn't replace a good partner whom has more value than just holding the rope.
To some, as myself, rope soloing is not about not having a partner. Is about living a different experience. And that hassle is part of the game. Being responsible of your own safety, solely and exclusively. Being alone. That, is the point, to me and many others.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Febs wrote: To some, as myself, rope soloing is not about not having a partner. Is about living a different experience. And that hassle is part of the game. Being responsible of your own safety, solely and exclusively. Being alone. That, is the point, to me and many others.
I agree. Better off just free soloing with no BS in the way.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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