Please critique my anchors

Hey all,

Finally went out to climb outdoors on our own, without a group for the first time, and here are some pics of our anchor set-up. I tried to do it as closely as I could to what I've been shown, but I'm sure there is room for improvement. For example, I saw some people use a piece of plastic under the webbing to protect it from rubbing against the edge...

All the knots are figure 8's backed up by double-fishermans (fishermen? :)).

Please let me know your thoughts!

anchors @ Devil's Lake

anchors @ Devil's Lake

anchors @ Devil's Lake

anchors @ Devil's Lake

anchors @ Devil's Lake

anchors @ Devil's Lake

one more pic

anchors @ Devil's Lake

For cleanliness and sake of ease (easier to weight the three legs evenly,) I would have brought all three strands of webbing together in a BFK for your master point.

I would toss the webbing and use a single static rope for the anchor in this situation.

I trust my knots on rope more than what you have there on the webbing, but I'm sure you didn't die, so...

A single static rope will be much more useful in these situations. Easy to check knots, untie, rappel on if need be, etc.

In the case here with the gear available, I would water knot and double sling the two trees and build off of that, but I'm probably gonna die!

Try wrapping the webbing around the tree a couple of times. That way, the load is supported by the friction between the bark and the webbing, instead of the knot. Makes it easier to untie afterwards and spreads the load over a larger area of the tree.

It looks like your master point is three separate loops of webbing. I would have taken the 3 pieces and tied one overhand on a bight. More wraps around the tree if your webbing is long enough to prolong the tree's life.

I'd use a water knot with webbing

"Webbing ties differently than rope because it is flat. For the most part, we use the Overhand Knot and variations of the overhand, because it lies flat in webbing. The Figure Eight knot (and higher order) does not lay flat – which makes the knot ugly, hard to inspect, compromises strength, and tends to make it loosen up and untie – an undesirable attribute. Let’s stick with overhand-based knots."

canyoneeringusa.com/techtip…

I'll 2nd the suggest to use a static rope instead of webbing. Also, I would have probably moved the slings down as close to the ground as possible to reduce the levering action enacted upon the trees.

Totally safe as said before, but I would second the suggestion to bring all three of your pieces of webbing together into one master point. Static rope will probably last longer if you are wrapping it around trees and hanging over edges but webbing will work just fine.

Congrats on moving outdoors for first time. Huge step! Not bad, but agree with others... would equalize your three legs into a single master point and try to tie off your trees near the base if possible. That said, static line is preferred. Good luck.

Good first time anchor! Congrats on having the balls to move out of the gym, while at the same time not being a dumb ass. That's an uncommon combination really.

Also, nice work mountain project, no trolling or anything...

Yet?

Looks pretty darn safe -but also looks like a PITA to break down those knots at the end of the day.

If you know how to tie a bowline, that's a knot I like to use when tying around a natural anchor, be it tree or boulder.

I additionally like to make the "tail" of the bowline (the part that goes "around the tree and through the hole") a bight, so that it can much more easily be untied by yanking the tail of the bight. The bight can still be used to make a backup safety on the bowline as per usual safe rigging style.

If this makes no sense, don't try it for climbing yet - practice a bunch before trusting live loads. Makes sense to do that anyway for any new knot system.

I'd add photos, but I don't have any.

matvey.... learn how to do water knots.

Otherwise... I would climb and fall over and over ... on your anchor.

welcome to the real world of climbing

I'd echo the comments suggesting creating a single master point. You probably don't need to use 3 trees for a TR anchor (unless the roots are REALLY shallow). I've always felt comfortable using a single tree as an anchor if it's 3-4" diameter and doesn't have obviously weak root systems; I work rope access construction and it is industry standard to use a single tree as an anchor for me (175# + 30# gear) and a drill rig (100-150#).

Thanks for all the replies people!

Is there any advantage in tying a water knot vs an overhand on a bite? From what I understand, the water knot would shorten my anchors by a factor of 2, which sucks because the trees at DL are often far from the edge...

Also, any comments on the idea of putting some plastic under the webbing to protect it from friction against the edge?

Finally, what's with everyone talking about dying all the time? :)

Standard rule of thumb is that a bomber tree for an anchor is at least the same thickness as your thigh. 3"-4" is pretty puny if you ask me. Rope access construction seems much different than the potential dynamic forces that can be put on a climbing anchor.

Dallas Branum wrote:Standard rule of thumb is that a bomber tree for an anchor is at least the same thickness as your thigh. 3"-4" is pretty puny if you ask me. Rope access construction seems much different than the potential dynamic forces that can be put on a climbing anchor.

The type of work I do puts much more load onto the anchor than any conceivable top-roping scenario (unless you are 350-400# and climbing on static rope.) 3-4" is plenty big for a tree that has a solid root system, especially if that system is in rock, like most trees used for TR anchors.

an option that has not been mentioned...

Tie a good size loop in the end of the webbing (maybe 6-8" if stretched flat), use a figure 9? (ooo gona get hurt for that one... what is the real name?) and girth hitch the tree. When hitching the tree, make sure that the hitch is being pulled on and not the tree. Leave the knot in for easy application next time. Apply a BFK for an anchor point. Set up time is less than 5 min.

We used a figure 9 because no matter how many years it has been in and no matter who has dogging it, you can always get it out. Figure 9 is an 8 with an extra twist.

For getting into a good position to rap, tie an overhand on a bite in one of the webbing strands and attached a 8ft static line to it so you can rap over the edge and transfer to the climbing rope rap. this is a good option if the hike down is long.

And remember to inspect your webbing often!

The water knot is more secure when connecting two ends of webbing/tape compared to just an overhand which can potentially roll down past the ends of the tails. That is why everyone advises to leave quite a bit of tail when tying overhands.

The reason to bring the legs/arms of the anchor together is to minimize any extension and shock loading on any single piece. One master point to tie everything together brings the fall force to one specific point that will distribute the force to all legs/arms, reduce extension/swing, and give redundancy (which you already have in the three legs/arms).

Shorten your anchors? Yes. Get a static rope if you can and don't mind lugging it around. You will never have to worry about if you brought enough 20, 30, 40, 50 foot sections of webbing. One rope will work for many different lenghts needed.

If you are worried about abrasion then yes, protect your anchor legs the best you can; backpack, towel, shirt, whatnot.

We are all going to die, but with the sport of rock climbing... the potential to die sooner rather than later increased substantially. When others mention "yer gonna die" it is more of an observation of poor judgement, poor gear placement, or whatnot that may have tendencies to fail more often than other more effecient/safe methods.

Moral of the story is: Learn and practice your stuff before you put yourself and/or others in harms way! Double check yourself and partner! Be safe! Have fun! :)

Being here and learning by asking questions puts you on a good path. Read some books on the subject if you haven't yet and maybe find a mentor.

No one seems to have mentioned using other materials for anchors. You will have a lot more adaptability for anchors when you incorporate passive pro, pinches, boulder wraps, and chock-stones. I let go of my bias against hexes and bought a set before moving to Madison for the season. I use them every day. A set of med-large stoppers is also very helpful. On lead, I use offset stoppers often, but less for anchors.

I really appreciate a more compact anchor and I think you will find it easier and faster when you incorporate other types of protection. Running a bunch of webbing all over the place is unsightly and can get in the way of other people hiking and climbing.

Keep getting out there and it will become more and more intuitive, or take a class to learn the nuances of placing gear. cheers

Apparently, the hike is so steep and long getting into Devil's Lake, that webbing is preferred over a similar length of static rope for the difference in weight. So packing in more pounds of gear could be met with strong resistance.

I do agree, that rock just begs to have a gear anchor built instead of wrapping the trees. The was the OP's first time outdoors... so I think he made a wise decision, and built a solid safe setup.