X4's in a Perpendicular to Fall Line Placement

rocknice2 wrote: Kerr I'm sorry that was a poor choice of words. This thread was not meant to be about you but I did use your photos. What I should have said was that the cam was loaded perpendicular to the fall line. Sorry and I hope you recover quickly

Really, who cares whether they were placed perpendicular or they were pulled into a perpendicular position? A clear mistake exists either way, among several evident in the situation. I'm surprised no one is bringing up this potential lesson: if you have to take on pro, only take in the direction of the fall, not while the pro is at your waist or below.

1st: the cam was loaded perpendicular to the fall. I can't envision any other way for the cam to have that kink in it if that were not the case. Placed that way, walked that way, zippered that way...who knows, but in order for the stem to be bent, the stem had to be in an orientation different from the direction of the fall.

2nd: I do think this is worth investigating. Everyone knows that it is not optimal to place a cam perpendicular to the fall. But everyone one does it. Sometimes it's in a horizontal, sometimes you just have no choice in a vertical pod. It's one thing if this compromises the strength of the placement or if this causes the cam to torque in a manner it is not intended and that compromises the placement. I can live with that. But, if there is a design feature of one cam that makes it more likely to self-trigger in a perpendicular placement then that is a significant limitation to that particular cam (assuming one brand does this more than another).

JLP wrote: Draws? Only a noob would put draws on cams in a crack that straight. Learn to climb past your gear. I often use my shin to push the rope closer to the crack as I climb past.

im a noob ... all the pieces are extended zeros and dragons ... and nuts ... and ive whipped on this climb quite a few times when i first tried it

yorkshire gripper 5.11b

you should post up to show us how its "done"

csproul wrote: I do think this is worth investigating. Everyone knows that it is not optimal to place a cam perpendicular to the fall. But everyone one does it. Sometimes it's in a horizontal, sometimes you just have no choice in a vertical pod. It's one thing if this compromises the strength of the placement or if this causes the cam to torque in a manner it is not intended and that compromises the placement. I can live with that. But, if there is a design feature of one cam that makes it more likely to self-trigger in a perpendicular placement then that is a significant limitation to that particular cam (assuming one brand does this more than another).

who in squamish has a blue X4 that they are willing to perhaps damage ... and the yellow C3 and blue mastercam

i have a the green alien, blue zero, blue rock empire, blue TCU, blue baby dragon ... but no X4

i know the perfect bottoming placements to test it on ... either body weight or short whippers

ill be out weekdays next week, every sunny day

;)

JLP wrote: bearbreeder - type "Indian Creek" into Google images.

this aint indian creek ...

nor do we all climb in indian creek ... ive seen cams get pulled upwards in squamish even on fairly straight cracks ...

course were all newbs so you should post up to show YOU doing it the right way on a climb of that level

;)

JLP wrote: Like I typed above - 2 lobes slip. It's the same thing, you just start from a different place. bearbreeder - type "Indian Creek" into Google images.

The point still stands. What rock nice said, "the cam was loaded perpendicular to the fall line" is almost certainly correct, despite your objection that it may not be.

As far as slinging cams in a straight in crack, I still think it is a good idea if the route is overhanging. You can still zipper (pull pieces outward/perpendicular) on a straight up crack if there is any significant overhang and your 1st piece fails to take an outward pull.

JLP wrote:This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

i simply asked for a photo of YOU demonstrating the proper technique of "only noobs extending" on a crack of the same level of the accident

obviously at least one of the cams went perpendicular ... either it was placed poorly or got pulled/walked into that position

if the latter a draw may well have mitigated that possibility

same JLP every time

;)

JLP wrote:This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

Yep. Same thing. You voluntarily reading shit that obviously frustrates you then getting into a pissing contest over it. Have you maybe considered just skipping the n00b threads? Just throwin' that out there.

For anyone interested. I've placed wild country zeros perpendicular to the fall line on shallow seams. They hold like champs!

Let's not get into slings or that it's not an optimal placement. Just because I took the photo from another thread, I want to keep this thread on track with the discussion of how an X4 or other flexible cams behave when placed straight into a shallow crack.

" i have made cams down to 1/4" I just wasn't happy with them. A 1/4 " camming isn't much"

Ray jardine '79

For what it's worth, I once whipped on a master cam placed perpendicularly in a constricting crack (so it couldn't rotate, and yea, it was my fault I placed too quickly) and the confidence inspiring part was even though the cam was ruined, it completely held the fall. There was no problem with the kind of disengage/levering out that people are wondering about here. Although I realize that this was just a single fall and not generalizable to all scenarios.

JLP wrote: I obviously haven't been 100% successful. bearbreeder - are you really trying to call me out by posting yet again this photo of you on an 11-, on a slab no less? You took multiple falls on this thing? Sick, bro. Could you also tell me how to mark the middle of my rope? You're so good at it.

im calling you out on you and your "only newb use draws" bull

still waiting for a simple photo of you demonstrating your non "newb" technique

if you call yorkshire a "slab" then almost every crack climbing in squamish is a slab

heres a nice moderate "slab" where i DIDNT extend the last 2 pieces as i had no draws left ... so i plugged in two

everything else you can see is on draws in a newb way

grub street 11a, malamute squamish

now how about YOU show us how its done ... since you are obviously going off about newbs over and over again ...

LOL

;)

nonsense were all "newbs" here for using draws ... LOL

on a more serious note ... is anyone actually willing to test these placements in real rock and post back?

;)

bearbreeder wrote: im calling you out on you and your "only newb use draws" bull still waiting for a simple photo of you demonstrating your non "newb" technique if you call yorkshire a "slab" then almost every crack climbing in squamish is a slab heres a nice moderate "slab" where i DIDNT extend the last 2 pieces as i had no draws left ... so i plugged in two everything else you can see is on draws in a newb way now how about YOU show us how its done ... since you are obviously going off about newbs over and over again ... LOL ;)

That is a crack in a slab. I've done the route a couple of times, it's awesome.

I almost always put a draw on my cams too, I hate watching them rotate out of position when I climb past, I want them to stay exactly where I place them.

JLP wrote:Leave some draws behind on these dead-straight cracks and the reduced weight and fumble factor might allow you nOObs to break into...11c...? Couple more tips: Consider YouTube for numerous videos of people who know how to climb past their gear without pulling it out. As I posted above - shin->rope - works wonders. Consider cropping your shiny rack out of photos posted to show us how experienced you are.

im not even going to bother JLP ... its not like yr doing anything other than mutter about "newbs" ... "draws" ...

try go climbing for once instead of being reduced to "look at youtube videos"

maybe youll be able to get up something for once

oh here are MY camalots, not my partners ... if thats all you can whine, thats pretty weak sauce

camalots

and heres my partner smiling at ya ... while cleaning my draws

sentry box 12a

;)

I most definitely AM a noob when it comes to trad, so please be patient while I try to understand.

I get that a cam loaded perpendicularly to the orientation of the stem is not good. With regard to the self-cleaning we're afraid of, is there also a separate, second issue here?

That is, are we also concerned about the orientation of the trigger bar? As far as I can tell, the fact that the trigger bar is oriented up/down is what could potentially lead to the cam disengaging. In contrast, if this were a horizontal crack, the cam stem would still be perpendicular to direction of fall, but the trigger bar would be pointing left/right, making it more difficult for the behavior seen in rocknice2's first picture to occur.

Is this an accurate understanding, or am I way off base?

michaelp wrote:I most definitely AM a noob when it comes to trad, so please be patient while I try to understand. I get that a cam loaded perpendicularly to the orientation of the stem is not good. With regard to the self-cleaning we're afraid of, is there also a separate, second issue here? That is, are we also concerned about the orientation of the trigger bar? As far as I can tell, the fact that the trigger bar is oriented up/down is what could potentially lead to the cam disengaging. In contrast, if this were a horizontal crack, the cam stem would still be perpendicular to direction of fall, but the trigger bar would be pointing left/right, making it more difficult for the behavior seen in rocknice2's first picture to occur. Is this an accurate understanding, or am I way off base?

you have the substance of the "argument" ...

the thing to note is that these arguments were made when the mastercams first came out as well ... in the vertical AND horizontal plane

the "argument" back then



rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…

and

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

it turned out not to be a major issue over the years ...

as to whether the X4s will have any issues, no one knows ... but if yr looking to purchase small cams the aliens and zeros have been out for a while and are proven commodities

place your gear well, in the direction of the pull when possible, and sling it to prevent walking ... and place nuts ... and back it up

thats all there is to it ... despite all the rhetoric

;)

Thank you, bearbreeder.

UPDATE:
I emailed BD with concerns regarding this test I made to see what response I would get. This IS ONLY FOR MY TEST not for anything other than this test. After a few emails back and forth Kolin was very helpful and informative. He didn't bash my results but this was a indeed backyard test. That's why I wanted to see what the pros would say. Here's what they had to say:

" I can appreciate your non-scientific tests - and as you may or may not know - the amount of testing we do when developing a new climbing product would blow your mind. Of course all of our cams meet all CE requirements, but that is only the tip of the iceberg of what we consider the required testing prior to BD putting a piece of PPE on the market. Design teams of climbing engineers going over every detail - climbing on prototypes in our local Wasatch range as well as around the world. Tweaking the design, more prototypes, continued exhaustive lab testing, and then back outside for more taking forced-whippers. In the lab we perform static tests, dynamic tests, bottoming crack tests - both static and dynamic, cams in different kinds of rock, wet, icy - you name it. We have a book, literally… a book, of all the tests that our cams go through during the design and development phase, with associated internal Black Diamond requirements that we’ve created over the years. We also test all competitors cams to our internal BD standards to understand where the unofficial bar of acceptability is. You’d be amazed. The amount of time we spent on testing the X4s was monumental. We know typical use situations as well as imagine most conceivable mis-use and abuse scenarios as well. We design and test around the scenarios as best we can, acknowledging that every route, every rock, every placement and ultimately every loading scenario is different. One thing I always say around here, “you can break anything under the right circumstances”. And we’ve proven that time and time again.

We painstakingly work on our instructions so that climbers know how to use the products, and understand the limitations of the product. Only when that is done do we go to production. And then it’s an entirely different level of testing: from testing the incoming raw materials, to work-in-process tests during the manufacturing and assembly, to 100% finished good proof testing and finally finished goods statistical product destructive batch testing. (it never gets easier seeing perfectly good brand new product get tested to destruction). I can base that confidence having been a climber for 25 years, and have 25 years of mechanical engineering experience in a manufacturing environment with 12 years of heading up Black Diamond’s top-notch Quality Assurance Team. "

I sent back an email asking to be more clear as to the shallow bottoming crack and perpendicular load. This was the response:

" As far as the X4s go
once again - we test for pretty much everything
did we test for bottoming crack, shallow placement? - yup
did we make rating? Not even close
did we test every other cam on the market including our own? You betcha
did they get results much different than ours? - not really
Did we spend an astronomical amount of time tweaking the interface between the axle swage and the trigger wire ‘distal’ to fro to avoid the flex of the cable pulling on the trigger wires on what we consider a pretty crappy placement ? Yes
dd we specifically do our best to design the trigger wires to have a strength such that if you’re reefing on the trigger, they don’t break, but in the situation described above, they just might - allowing the cam to stay in the crack Yes
Do we warn that a bottoming crack placement is a crappy placement in the instructions? yes, a shallow bottoming crack placement is a crappy placement.

For sure sometimes you take what you can get
just like placing a 2kN microstopper if that’s all you can get in - but if you barely load that, the cable will snap

Climbers need to understand the limitations of their gear. Just because you can place it doesn’t mean it’s a good placement.
Once again - you can get anything to fail under the right circumstances.. "

Well that answered my fears. I know a shallow perpendicular placement is suspect and will never meet the stated rating. I'm confident in the X4's and my test while interesting is an anomaly.

I got permission to use his responses here.

i must say, rocknice2, in just two days you've posted about a billion times as much detailed content as the previous accident thread. Weeks of crying wolf and avoiding questions by that climber who fell was pretty annoying. Good on you for doing some research and writing up actual information.