Statistics on injuries resulting from ice lead falls

Note: This thread is from Leo Paik, not me, Warbonnet.

This thread is stirring old memories. 10) I recall a "sucker hole" like event at Marble Falls where the climber punched through into the running water and had a scary but non-lifethreatening fall. 11) I also recalled this mixed climb fall at Inferno where "the big block came down in a big way" and the climber sustained some serious injury. Also, a while back, I edited a few other incidents I recalled to my original list.

Warbonnet:

As I suspected, this thread is going to stir more memories, including stories from friends. In one of the most bizarre accidents I've seen, this 20-ish guy was leading a WI 3 (nice guy) and was about to top off (where it can be uber dangerous), he placed a 22 about 4 feet down (in a positive angle), punched into an ice cold (of course) stream flowing underneath and the "ice hose" quickly filled his partially unzipped parka with everything than hot chocolate. To make it more bizarre, the ice was thin enough that his boots slipped under the 6" now collapsed snow, making it one of the historic all time rescues. All hands on deck.

Reply from Mike Barter (Canada)

Warnbonnet comment: Canadian über-guide Mike Barter's reply (I indicated upstream that I would contact him; Banff, Canada. Known by all and the rest don't matter. (Has a zillion clips of everything related to climbing).

Told him we were working on a "Ice Climbing Accidents Statistics" model/data/info and this is his reply (unedited);
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On Feb 8, 2014, at 8:57 AM, Banff Media wrote:

Hi David

Interesting question I just asked one of parks Canada’s senior vistor safety specialists since she sitting across the room in her PJ’s. She a lot sexier in gore-tex armour hanging under a helicopter looking like real life Lora Croft. Anyhow she say’s that they don’t compile ice stats specifically but lump them in with accidents in general. Go to the Parks Canada banff site and find the URL to their Facebook page I believe that the data is on there. At one time the Alpine Club of Canada did the mountaineering accidents of North America each year but I think it’s been a decade or more since I have seen that and doubt it even exists anymore.

The one place that we do get a lot reports is around Willy Boys site Gravsportsice.com gravsports-ice.com/icethreads/. I would say a whooping 90% of the local climbers check into this site. Often accidents are reported and the reason stated. We have a pretty good community in that sense and posing is not really tolerated as the armchair ice climbers around here would kick most peoples ass’s.
So officially I don’t know of any real source of compiling. If there was one I am pretty sure I would know about it. have to check out the debate have a link?

Mike

Joe McKay
Box 5936
Banff, AB
Canada T1L 1G8
1403 431 1821

mountainguide.com

Mike Barter Climbing Tools Series
youtube.com/mikebarter387

Keep your stick on the ice and your crampons sharp

__________________

Mike, thanks for the info. Gadd's site looks really good but a bit overwhelming. Hard to tease out the ice climbing injury stats (at least for me). Will check out Parks Canada's Facebook page (although I try to stay off Facebook; maybe someone else at Mountain Projects can do that).

Would you say that Parks Canada has better stats on ice climbing (in particular) accidents that Gadd's site? Presumably both are worth checking out.

(As a side, I'm surprised that you Cannucks climb ice at all up there, eh? Thought it was a rumor).

You'll have to go to mountainproject.com and join for FREE. You can be Joe McKay if you like.....any name will do. Find "Forums" and click on "Thread Review for Statistics on Injuries Resulting from Ice Lead Falls." (It might be under the main topic "Icey Hearts Unite", something like that.

This thread is under-reported/per number of views - they all are - you can look at the number of views, however, I believe it counts any click as "one", so the data are skewed).

This thread is quite active and becoming more so and in my opinion, there are many experienced (& novice but enthusiastic) ice climbers (& mixed climbers....we told the rock types to stay out....for now) weighing in with their experience re: ice accidents, approaches to doing something with the data (mostly anecdotal), or in some way doing something with what we are collecting. (We have some good statisticians involved with the dialogue, trying to figure out an approach to it all, recognizing it's very hard to do so).

While the groups haven't discussed it per se, we might only end up with a simple matrix of info ("lead climber fall - was X ft (ok, meters) past a 22 cm screw; broken ankle") or ("17 screw pulled out of rotten ice, lead climber took 50 foot fall; death"), ("belayer failed to catch lead climber 10 ft above him; leader fell onto belayer; both evacuated due to broken arm & numerous lacerations", etc.). But all of this can be built upon and we think it's a good start.

You get the idea. Reading thru the string (which you get paid tons of money to do) will give you an idea of what we are trying to do.

Best to post your replies to mountainproject.com, that way, all can read what you have to say (and take the Lower 48 Poser Punch from us (you being the 51st State anyway). I'm not sure it's productive to post to each commenter; maybe have your heli pilot keep a list and then have at it.

Alternatively, you have my email address (I'm Warbonnet on this site) but that requires I cut & paste your replies and besides, you won't get to advertise your links (hey, you might get subscribers!).

So get out of the snow & ice, read what you can & more importantly.....be nice...but I always count on your candor. If not, I won't climb Sea of Vapors with you again upside down and naked. That was freakin' cold.

Look forward to your input Mike.

See you soon on mountainproject.com

Warbonnet

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MP-ers: don't miss Mike's "Safest Unknown Method of Ice Climbing"; can be found by scrolling down his site. I was so inspired I bought a 4th tool -- really helps.

He has an account here:
Mike Barter

Thanks Cproul; it seems like he runs so many websites.....perhaps he runs all of ours.

To get to his main site, the best is still mikebarter387. But I warned that he sometimes goes by Joe Makay for reasons he still refuses to tell me. So, don't be concerned if you see a training clip wherein he introduces himself as such.

Nor uses that name when he introduces the Banff Film Festival.

Thanks for the personal website....now we can surround the Wikipedia of the mts.

Mike Barter,

I've spend a bit of time on Gravespot.com & it seems a bit tricky to navigate. Do you know how to it and/or do so such that we can focus on ice climbing accidents? They might not be in there in so neat and tidy a package & frankly I'd be surprised if they were. Ideally, what we are doing (can't stop the preening) is probably ground breaking, at least recently.

If we could get the Canadians to cooperate (fat chance) between what Gravespot is doing and Mountain Project is doing, we might contribute to the climbing community (about time....you won't have to sleep in garbage bins).

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Selfishly I do not speak for the group and certainly there will be major flaw in the followings: I trust they will let/me & the others in now.

I'm just trying to get things going with concrete steps (at least WI 2.

I see the following needs to be done. ALL OTHERS PLEASE ADD COMMENTS HERE AND IF SOMEONE WANTS TO RUN LEAD ON THIS, PLEASE, PLEASE DO SO!

1. A basic approach of how to go about it (a "biz plan" if you will);

2. An agreement on terminology. This is the easy part: we adopt the American System because it makes more sense, is more reliable, and we don't need to end every sentence with "eh". "Eh". Agree"? EH?

3. There a number from our group with great stories of accidents, outcome, evacuation, EMT on-site, etc.. We will compile them (at least our major categories.....try to look at trends.....at our end and share. You may be ahead of us in this regard.

4. We will look at a format that may suit our collective needs recognizing it will be a work in progress. I like the notion of someone taking a crack at hards stats, notwithstanding it has its limitations (that he and others acknowledge). If you can info out of Gravspots & the Nat'l Park info, we have folks at our that can start to something (2+2=4 stuff). Actually they are quite good. Let us know if anyone up there has bothered statistical analsyis.

5. In my mind such a dB would grow quickly (people ice climb in the summer) because it should be simple enough to log in and register the info. I suspect a normalized curve could be developed in short order.

6. Rules (dang it): some are listing accidents with considerable detail that they remember, either directly and indirectly. My vote is to count this with the caveat that it is from memory. We could (and should) count them (marked w/*) and here's the best part of doing so: we can make up whatever we want to; and, this is both self-serving and it gives the data we need.

Lead on.

Mark Cushman wrote:Good thread on ice lead falls from a few years ago.

Hey guys. Please excuse my director's commentary. I hope it's ok; I'm not qualified to discuss the technical merits either way, however, I am regarding a few things.

I wanted to address a few comments with regards to the belayer, Ethan, and his remarks about falling and how wrong an opinion he was expressing. Even after reading Will's blog, I cannot say I know what the correct position on falling would be - other than don't. But if you aren't going to fall, then why put in pro?

As the interviewer, editor, and videographer of the video featuring him, let me just say for the record that I lead Ethan full on into the falling discussion and don't think he got a fair shake as a result of my edit. My entire point was actually one about me. It was my personal attempt to say, "This was a really big deal for me, but not so much for you, eh? You're ready for that kinda sheet every time you climb, eh? Man, I need to get out more 'cause that sucked..."

I'm not an ice climber and was just there filming; my friends were actually helping me get off my duff by taking me on some climbs; I simply was not prepared to deal with someone falling like that, and I mean the affect a fall like that had on me personally. Maybe none of you really are, either. But that was what I was asking. During the interview, I never really got to finish the thought; he ran with it.

I was trying to say, "I typically film weddings and stuff. But you, oh belayer, are expecting something to go wrong - that's why you have all this equipment around your waist and stuff; that's why you place pro when you climb, right? You are expecting someone to fall; if not expecting, then preparing for something to go wrong; you are or should prepared for it" - and I was trying to question/explain this to him in the context of why I was more screwed up re: the fall than he was because I had no such expectation or general stance of pending doom. I'll sling a tripod or what have you, but only if I'm "expecting" it to fall and don't want to nail somebody with my gear, let alone lose it.

He said what he said, but the question he answered and the original context never really made it. And that was my fault; actually the presentation of the event is entirely on me. But I'm really glad Russ said what he said - "He caught the fall, he was watching, he had the correct amount of slack, he was anchored in, he seemed not to have contributed negatively to the event." I would say, in my non-climbing vocabulary, "That's because he was 'expecting' a fall". And that's why I chose to put it in, even if at the end for outtakes...it made, and still makes sense to me.

I think I could have avoided making him such a target, but at the time, how to do so escaped me; OK, I actually had no idea I was making him one at all; the sentiment was more mine than his. That's all...I guess it's a bigger issue with much finer points than I am capable of discerning.

A parting shot: