Why monopoints?
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Warbonnet wrote: Even when I'm barbecuing with my old duals.I'd like to get a little tutorial on grilling hot-dogs please! Preferrably with photos. |
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doligo wrote: I'd like to get a little tutorial on grilling hot-dogs please! Preferrably with photos.Doligo, we only barbecue from a single Snarg on the first pitch of Winter Dance...will send an invite. Kitty, Jeff and all: wouldn't you agree that the boot is part and parcel of the "system" (regardless of the uber climbers such as yourself who (deservedly) can get anything they want" in terms of equipment?. But am interested in your "Chicks with Picks" classes; monos or duals or both? If a student starts out with one, do they tend to stick with that configuration? Kitty does a good job in explaining the difference between "vertical duals" versus "horizontal duals"....try them both cuz they don't climb the same (at least in my experience). Having said that, I can't imagine one doing a hip scum with horizontal duals on a tiny rock or ice knob; I'd bet on them skating.....could be wrong....maybe you are just using ONE of the duals in this case? What do you think of the newer crampons wherein an inner "tooth" can be adjusted shorter or longer notwithstanding the hassle of doing so. (I think they are a bit gimmicky, frankly). Kitty, we both know (as do hundreds following this string) some of the super giants (female and male) who use modular crampons. I also know (& you do too) super pros who have recently changed to monos, asking the question: "Why did I wait so long"? Re: taking your 3 person poll about monos v. duals, our mutual friend Bill Belcourt (BD) not long ago didn't hesitate on a hot summer night: monos (Stingers). They changed my game, first time out, on steep, bullet ice and on anything but rotten slush. My experience is that mono points are the only way to go in trashing up and through heavy chandeliered ice. Duals guarantee an excavation job (but chandeliers do any way). |
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Kirby1013 wrote:Cassin Bladerunners are the monopoint crampons to buy.Kirby, Kirby, my dear friend Kirby (OK, I liked the X-Dreams); Your Cassin Bladerunners have two faults: 1) the front points remind me of an old girlfriend, and 2) I can't imagine the maze of front points won't ice up after 3-10 kicks. Cassin Blade Runner Crampons Being a BD Stinger (pic below) fan, they have a unique feature: (besides being stainless).....notice how the front points angle "inwards" a bit. I think anyone who has seriously tried these and compared them to other crampons (there are other good ones out there), the inward direction can make a real difference). Black Diamond Stainless Steel Stinger Crampons BD Stingers - bottom view |
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I can't believe I woke up this early and are talking bout crampons! |
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Kirby, you just go me going, again. |
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Never liked the Darts,,,,still stick by my now classic( over 5 years old gear is 'classic' around here, right?) Rambo IV's. Love the mono, and all those forward facing additional teeth, be they short,med, or long; all work well in assisting the 'stick' for the feet. |
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Sabertooths ,foot fangs , Trango harpoons, then the Rambo 1,2&3 family , then Darts . |
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Always a good discussion, but it's kinda like the ski length "debate". Considering most prominent, classic ice climbs of our generation were done on VASTLY inferior tools with incredible form, I think the debate is a little moot. It really boils down to personal preference. I use all three. Straight up steel Sabertooths when I'm in the mood, Charlet M10 monos (heavy, but super solid) and Grivel G14s verts in dual mode. Usually, the Grivel's are on my feet the most. On pure ice, overall, I think the differences are minimal, though conditions can be a consideration. Mixed, I think monos are best for two reasons, precision (which is a less an issue on pure ice) and replacement cost. But, as I said, it boils down to personal preference, and to a degree, style. I know a few top notch climbers that climb exclusively on dual vertical points. YMMV... |
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Just Solo wrote: Considering most prominent, classic ice climbs of our generation were done on VASTLY inferior tools with incredible form, I think the debate is a little moot. ... Just Solo, couldn't agree with you more. While we throw our opinions at each other, the twain do meet and I think you summarized it nicely. Even though a BD Stinger fan, it took me thru a number of brands & types to dial into what works for me UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. I think if people get wedded to one type (mono v. dual or double verticals v. horizontals) they rob themselves of the opportunity to learn from them all. I got interested this weekend in the past history of crampons (fascinating) and came up with several images that put ours in perspective. But I also tried to put my head inside theirs wondering what they were thinking insofar as "are these working"; "how can they be improved"? Some of these are really old photos.......mid 1850's, maybe earlier (if anyone has more info, weigh in); the "newer" boots & crampons are interesting cuz of how damn sharp the crampons are. If I can fit a fifth in here, I will; will be a hob nail boot but with a fashion twist; I might add a few other jewels and let's ask ourselves (In a positive way, i.e., "how can I walk on this snow & ice") cuz we've all had the same thoughts but with different technology & techniques (& dare I say fear). Warbonnet. Old wooden block crampons (year????) Looks like it was made from a beer can but a lot of work into making these. A little more modern..... The fashion trend These were probably my first!!! (Notice they hadn't joined the main frame near the front points....a bit odd, eh? Super old...you can see the rings on the sides. And they are DUAL front points!!! Damn they're sharp! And finally, IN ACTION!!!!! (Many difficult routes were put up back in the day that still stand as test pieces even with the best of gummy shoes. |
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Warbonnet wrote: Just Solo, couldn't agree with you more. While we throw our opinions at each other, the twain do meet and I think you summarized it nicely. Even though a BD Stinger fan, it took me thru a number of brands & types to dial into what works for me UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. I think if people get wedded to one type (mono v. dual or double verticals v. horizontals) they rob themselves of the opportunity to learn from them all. I got interested this weekend in the past history of crampons (fascinating) and came up with several images that put ours in perspective. But I also tried to put my head inside theirs wondering what they were thinking insofar as "are these working"; "how can they be improved"? Some of these are really old photos.......mid 1850's, maybe earlier (if anyone has more info, weigh in); the "newer" boots & crampons are interesting cuz of how damn sharp the crampons are. If I can fit a fifth in here, I will; will be a hob nail boot but with a fashion twist; I might add a few other jewels and let's ask ourselves (In a positive way, i.e., "how can I walk on this snow & ice") cuz we've all had the same thoughts but with different technology & techniques (& dare I say fear). Warbonnet.GREAT POST!!! This is when we need a "like" button!!! Love those "modern" hobnails! |
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"Just Solo: Considering most prominent, classic ice climbs of our generation were done on VASTLY inferior tools with incredible form, I think the debate is a little moot." |
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COOL!! |
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Just Solo wrote:COOL!! Man I want one of those old, wooden handled, Alpenstocks! They are too freakin' cool! Love that pic of the woman on Ben Nevis! If I only had the BALLS these women had!!!Agree with all you say. I look at the Ben Nevis photos all the time. There are stories there. (A friend pointed out that the leader has a rope above her but....duh....there were four of them, hence, one to take the photo. The leader in the pic is trying to do her own thing and to me, it's clear she's trying to work it out. I wonder how they (or any of that generation) would do if we/they swapped out our new equipment this string is talking about and have a go at it? Once they got a hang of it, I think they'd kick our butts; we have every toy, they had few. This string began with "Why mono points"? Hell, these women would probably put either kind on backwards and STILL out climb us. And sans helmets. Hell, I wouldn't even think of walking near Ben Nevis w/o a helmet. |
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Looking closer at the pic with the three women, it looks like they are roped together. Simul-climbing on Ben Nevis!! Possibly on a rope team of 5 or more,(rope above, picture taker. Certainly no one belaying it would seem. |
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Hadn't noticed it but I think you're right. The pic just reeks of "we're gonna do this, any questions"? |
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I didn't consider monopoints until a couple seasons ago when I found myself in Canmore about to get on a mixed climb. I had Cyborgs with me, but my experience with mixed climbing on Cyborgs at Sandstone, Minnesota, was not a good one: At a crux I found that a mandatory divot would accept only one point, and that the second point worked only to dislodge the first point from that divot. So I went to the local ski shop in Canmore and rented some beater monopoints (Petzl Dart) for $5 a day. They worked phenomenally well -- far better on mixed terrain than the dual points would have performed, with little if any diminution on pure ice. [My theory is that on pure ice the action lies mainly in the secondary points, so it really doesn't matter (much) if the front points are mono- or dual-]. This theory/perspective is corroborated by Colin Haley, fresh from his Begguya (Mount Hunter) solo in the Alaska Range. He writes: "I prefer mono points for mixed climbing, and dual points for pure ice climbing. I think that the advantage of mono points on mixed terrain is greater than the advantage of dual points on pure ice." Approaching the 2017-18 season, I likely will be on monopoints most of the time, wearing dual points only when on 100% waterfall ice. |
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Sadly, it was a good enough ski season this year, and time was limited (due to 1 year old daughter), but I'm ready for the 2017-18 ice season. |
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Bill Kirby wrote: Monopoints are superior over duals when climbing rock hard ice. Monos are great for any grade. Not sure why anyone would feel less secure on a 2 than a 4. WI2 is unsafe dumb shit run it out time for me so... I would go out and try a pair of monos and make up your own mind. I think you would be able to tell the difference in a couple laps especially if it's really cold out that day. Oh, and to answer your next question... Cassin Bladerunners are the monopoint crampons to buy. Just don't tell the wife and/or girlfriend how much money there were. They'll figure it out after three weeks of not eating out and staying in on the weekends. By then you have realized it was worth the grief! Saw they offer size 1..size 2...and something referred to as the Alpine model. What's the difference? I cabt seem to find a description on the Cassin site? |
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JasonSH wrote: Size 1 is for boots size 37-46 and size 2 is for sizes 40-49 The Alpine model comes with dual horizontal points as well as vertical points. It was great reading through this again. I forgot how much I used to pimp out Cassin |
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Bill Kirby wrote: Thanks Bill! |