Adding/moving bolts at Stone Mountain NC

Adam Paashaus wrote: I won't deny that ego has its place in climbing but to say that it is the only reason is ... bullshit.

That actually isn't what I said; the topic was the preservation of hard scary routes and I said the only reason for it was ego. Which it is. Maybe I didn't present it well, but I was intending to point out that ego and acknowledgement from others is a major motivation in all aspects of climbing, and much more so than people are willing to admit.

Look at the responses to my statements; Ryan Watts for example states all the things he likes about RMNP and does not think his enjoyment has anything to do with his ego. Then says it would piss him off if it were bolted. Why is that? Specifically what is it that would piss him off? Because he can have the exact same physical experience he is having now, the difference is in the way it would effect him emotionally. He would feel like something is being taken from him, that he is being cheated. And that something is bragging rights.

And Meme Guy continues to prove my point, no comment is even necessary. Although he did bring up GoPros and public tic lists (although he is clearly too cool to use them himself)… what do you suppose the motivation for those are? Its like when you watch a climbing video and some famous climber waxes on about his inspirations and motivations and love of this and that and purity of the line etc and then you see him climbing in the latest fashions from his sponsor and there just happens to photographers all over the route and you see video of the crux from 3 different angles. It's all bullshit.

Anyway, kind of feel like I am going n circles here and if you think you are climbing purely for the glory of God or mother nature or whatever I don't suppose I am ever going to change your mind; people seem to have the hardest time seeing through their own bullshit. But when some noob asks why there isn't a bolt on some dangerous route and you start to feel a burning anger building in the pit of your stomach and your fists instinctively tighten and your jaw sets and your eyes narrow, that isn't preservation or tradition or respect for the FA that you are feeling, thats ego.

I really like some of Recon's argument, but it seems that ego or at least selfishness would also be the main reason for wanting all routes to be bolted in a manner that they find suitable (i.e. "safely"). Why cannot we have all kinds of routes?

Jake Jones and VaGenius,

First of all 'VaGenius' kind of sounds like 'vagina' when you read it fast, you might want to change that.

Second, you are completely missing my point; I am not anti-anything. I am not criticising any particular style of climbing, I have done ground up first ascents myself, as I said above I am not for bolting scary routes. Try and focus here: what I am saying is that the motivation for preserving hard scary routes is ego. Nothing else. And when people start spewing all this bullshit about ethics and aesthetics and respect etc etc etc it is all bullshit. What I am, if you want to put a label on me, is anti-bullshit. If you are a hard man trad climber thats great, but don't look down your nose at the big mouth sport and gym climbers and boulderers who never shut up about there latest and greatest sends, at least they are honest about it. So AGAIN, if you want to 'preserve' hard scary routes thats fine, just spare everyone the bullshit and be honest about why you want to do so.

Just for the VaGenius…

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fer fux sake people it's stone mountain NC

the rangers will never let climbers legally add a bolt to a route there anyway so give it a rest.

these routes were almost all put up in the 70s without sticky rubber, before sport climbing existed. with modern sticky shoes they all climb soft and most routes are 5.10 or under.

I did my first leads there and as long as you have a good lead head just scamper bolt to bolt like a freaking lizard. We used to go there on Easter and one of the locals would solo all over the rock face hiding easter eggs like he was just out for a hike.

Also you can easily traverse left from the anchors on Electric Boobs (which is a well protected stone route) to the anchors on Orange Blossom if you want to top rope the line and don't feel like soloing up to the shuts.

I bet half you whiners have never even been to Stone. Geez

You are all missing a valuable lesson in climbing history here. Let me enlighten the egotist, anti-egotist, newbies and the peanut gallery with a little story from climbings past. I hate to sound like the old, bald, grumpy Lorax but if this thread makes me sound like one, here I go. Many, many years ago, driven by huge egos and balls of steel a band of brothers began hammering their way up thousand foot walls in a pristine valley called Yosemite. As word got out about this magical place of beauty and awe, more and more of their brothers came and their brothers and so on. This caused much damage to the very precious stone that brought them all their in the first place and many heated arguements ensued even causing more damage to the stone they thrived for. Then one day a Royal showed up and showed everybody a better way that did not scar the polished gems of the Valley and everybody, well almost everybody, lived happily ever after. Merry Christmas everyone!

P. Sully wrote:used to go there on Easter and one of the locals would solo all over the rock face hiding easter eggs like he was just out for a hike.

Yup, that guy lives down the way from me.

And in all honesty, from my encounters with the rangers, they care a hell of a lot more about climbers than any other person in the park. They don't even check fishing licenses, trout stamps, or creel limits, but they've got climbers under a microscope compared to the rest of the park. The only people I've ever seen get a lecture from a stone mountain ranger...climbers. The rangers know that there shouldn't be anyone up there drilling and they've done a pretty good job protecting it.

Shit, back in 06 me and Frankie (RIP) gained the tree ledge only to find some backwards baseball hat wearin sonamabitch preparing to set up a top rope. We asked him what he was doing and he said "nothing" all suspiciously so I took a better look at him and saw the fucking bolt gun on the ground next to him. I nudged Frankie and pointed to the bolt gun. After a brief struggle, frankie grabbed that shit and managed to fling it off the ledge while threatening to throw the guy down with it. I told Frankie no violence, and he turned around and soloed the great arch faster than I've ever seen him do it. I've got some more stories from Stone but I'll save them for the camp fire.

God damn 10 pages long...

Recon Buck wrote: Ryan Watts for example states all the things he likes about RMNP and does not think his enjoyment has anything to do with his ego. Then says it would piss him off if it were bolted. Why is that? Specifically what is it that would piss him off? Because he can have the exact same physical experience he is having now, the difference is in the way it would effect him emotionally. He would feel like something is being taken from him, that he is being cheated. And that something is bragging rights.

I think you missed my point entirely. I don't enjoy hard / scary routes personally. None of the routes I was referring to is hard or particularly scary. By no stretch of the imagination do I feel like a badass climbing 5.8 in the mountains somewhere. There are no bragging rights to be lost. If you bolted it, it wouldn't really make a difference in "scare factor" since no one falls off there any way. It *would* make a difference in the "wilderness" factor, which is something I personally value. Why not put a convenience store at the base of the route? Or pave all the trails?

I think there is something to be said for a "leave no trace" ethic in the wilderness (to the point possible) regardless of the activity. I think hikers should pick up their trash even though I could have the same "physical experience" with litter all over the trail. Is that ego?

shannon stegg wrote:You are all missing a valuable lesson in climbing history here. Let me enlighten the egotist, anti-egotist, newbies and the peanut gallery with a little story from climbings past. I hate to sound like the old, bald, grumpy Lorax but if this thread makes me sound like one, here I go. Many, many years ago, driven by huge egos and balls of steel a band of brothers began hammering their way up thousand foot walls in a pristine valley called Yosemite. As word got out about this magical place of beauty and awe, more and more of their brothers came and their brothers and so on. This caused much damage to the very precious stone that brought them all their in the first place and many heated arguements ensued even causing more damage to the stone they thrived for. Then one day a Royal showed up and showed everybody a better way that did not scar the polished gems of the Valley and everybody, well almost everybody, lived happily ever after. Merry Christmas everyone!

+1

Ive been baffled how the protection of the rock hasn't really been brought up in this thread. Thanks Stegg! I think that new climbers should have to spend 2 years doing LNT backpacking to qualify to climb outside.

Even though this thread has wandered quite a bit, I will say once again what I said on page #1.

At Stone Mountain, you either climb the route the way it is now, or don't climb it. No matter what. At Stone Mountain, you don't add bolts. Period.

The CCC manages the fixed gear and interacts with the park service to keep the all the bolts "safe." The park service is against new routes / additional bolts. It is in their land-use policy for Stone Mountain. I see no reason to try to add bolts where the land manager doesn't want them. There are enough access issues in NC already. We don't need to add Stone Mountain to the list over one bolt.

In regards to Stone Mountain, this is all that needs to be said. In other areas there are a lot of shades of gray that the climbing fundamentalist and I would disagree about. However, at Stone, there is no middle ground.

Now, someone post some climbing porn and lets get this thread to 11 pages.

Meme Guy wrote: I nudged Frankie and pointed to the bolt gun.

Was that one of those Stallone type Cliffhanger bolt guns?

shannon stegg wrote:You are all missing a valuable lesson in climbing history here. Let me enlighten the egotist, anti-egotist, newbies and the peanut gallery with a little story from climbings past. I hate to sound like the old, bald, grumpy Lorax but if this thread makes me sound like one, here I go. Many, many years ago, driven by huge egos and balls of steel a band of brothers began hammering their way up thousand foot walls in a pristine valley called Yosemite. As word got out about this magical place of beauty and awe, more and more of their brothers came and their brothers and so on. This caused much damage to the very precious stone that brought them all their in the first place and many heated arguements ensued even causing more damage to the stone they thrived for. Then one day a Royal showed up and showed everybody a better way that did not scar the polished gems of the Valley and everybody, well almost everybody, lived happily ever after. Merry Christmas everyone!

Boy you are a uninformed jack-a-hole regarding Valley history. Robbins added 110+ bolts on Tissiack (sic) and called it a "route worth bolting for". This, after failing to chop "all" of Harding's "Dawn Wall".

Did not scar the polished gems of the valley. Comedy Gold, man.

Let's not even get into the "modern trad" (cough cough) ethics of NC featuring removable bolts and other nefarious means on first ascents, rap lines down "scary route" previews etc and so on...

Know your history or just say no. Of course, you seem to be the rather "VC" type if you know Yosemite you'll know what this Harding gem means-or if you have read Downward Bound...i'm willing to shed more light, if not. Merry Xmas, learn something every day...

Mark O'Neal wrote: Was that one of those Stallone type Cliffhanger bolt guns?

Yeh

god damn reading all of this makes me want to go "set some lines" with my gun

whats the weather like now anyways?

Hey Trad Dad, had to abandon your old school ways when I watchced one of your heros drill two pitches of bat hook holes. well over a hundered of them ground up and you did not blink. I sat and watched you crazy people chop 18 bolts of mine that all were put up ground up, however I did top down preview the direct finish to "Groover" as I did not want to mess up a boltless route. 90 percent of my FA s are ground up. The rock dictates that! I sat and watched your prolific guide book author change bolt positions on "Fathom" and do the same on Forbiden Fruit without even climbing it. I have watched you heretics for over forty years now and atleast my balls have not shrunk so much that I am afraid to go by my real name!

Jonny 5 wrote: Total beginner climber here that as only climbed around where he lives. I have to say that I can see Pacific Ocean from here and there are many runout climbs here. Also lots of highballs, I've yet to climb any but I'm sure the day will come... This is an example of a local runout climb sent ground up where the gentleman took a huge fall broke his hand last year. Trained like a beast and went back and sent it.

Were you trying to be sarcastic here? I don't see a runout lol. I guess he did pass some gear placement and just finished at the end but at stone runouts we are talking 60ft between bolts with zero possibility of gear placement. I don't really like 30ft to first bolts either because i have decked from 30ft and could only traverse for a month and half in the gym while I was healing (yes free soloing 50ft 5.12s when you have to work most 5.11s with a single crash pad is bad, on a positive note i did get 1 and half foot on the pad when i landed).

For the most part the runouts aren't going to be that bad a fall mainly sliding down sandpaper for 60-120ft but there are a few that have the last gear placement at 30ft and the next possible bolt / gear 30ft later with a ledge 60ft below that so if you fell right while trying to clip it could hurt if you belayer didn't jump off the ledge.

the running belay was invented here

VaGenius wrote:News flash: VaGenius is a combination of two words, vagina and genius.

lol, OK, I assumed Va = Virginia.

Man oh man could I have some fun with this… unfortunately I am not the troll I have been accused of so I will let it slide. And on a discussion about egos! So tempting… No no, just let it go...

Sorry, Recon Buck thinks this is about egos, it is about altering history and the destruction of our cliffs due to egos. Try to stay focused here!

Sorry Trad Dad, never ever considered Royal Robbins to be a Hack! I am sure your resume is much better than his! Since my history of Yosemite is flawed in your mind, let me quote Royal himself from a review of "Downward Bound". From the book "The Games Climbers Play" page 315 and in his words "I might add that I am still in favour of leaving bolts in place, the exceptional circumstances of The Dawn Wall notwithstanding. When I was chopping those bolts I felt badly about doing it. It was as if I was hitting Harding with every blow, and I counted Harding among my friends{I still do}. Our motives were quite different of the ace Yosemite aid man who made a subsequent ascent and chopped bolts he could pass without using. The same chap told me he intended to return and chop quite a few more bolts, the better to remake the route in his own image. Such bolt chopping is merely a way of underlining one's own superiority, and show ruthless contempt for the work of other men.