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Understanding Climbing Fall Forces on Small Gear
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Panorama 4/2002 or to make it really easy alpenverein.de/chameleon/pu… |
Jim Titt wrote:Panorama 4/2002 or to make it really easy alpenverein.de/chameleon/pu…Thanks Jim! |
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Apologies ... I was too lazy to post the references |
Gunkiemike wrote: If you don't have any gear that fits, what are you Frenching on?Awesome, I noticed that after I typed it and wondered if anyone would call me on it. I was thinking of a situation in Zion where I got off route on a mixed aid/free route and was willing to aid on a tiny cam in sandy rock but not to free climb above it. I forgot when typing that that didn't quite fit my scenario. |
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Phil, what route? i have had a certain degree of the pants filling on the sandy stuff here. |
climbnplay wrote: Climbing on small gear/poor gear is a personal thing - if it doesn't do anything for you, don't do it; it's as simple as that. .Whether or not small gear "does something for you" - by which I assume you mean holds a fall - isn't personal at all. It's completely objective and impersonal. Unless you are referring to "mental pro," which would be ridiculous. |
Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:Phil, what route? i have had a certain degree of the pants filling on the sandy stuff here.It was Touchstone Wall. Somewhere around the halfway point the route moves right to a different crack system. We didn't look at the topo, and I just kept going up the original crack, until I hit an overhanging sandbox of a boulder problem. Oops! The cam turned out to be good for body weight; no way in hell I was going to bounce test that thing. |
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Blah..Blah...Blah...Who cares about the math? Who climbs in a controlled lab anyway? What you need to know about small gear is how to place it. Thats it. |
Jake Jones wrote: Don't discount the importance of a dynamic belay on small gear. Most often we think of a dynamic belay in terms of the "soft" effect it has on the climber, but it can reduce forces on your top piece as well. A dynamic belay isn't always possible, especially if you're doing multi and off the ground, but it's worth considering.Excellent and VERY important point! |
Jonathan Dull wrote:Blah..Blah...Blah...Who cares about the math? Who climbs in a controlled lab anyway? What you need to know about small gear is how to place it. Thats it. Check out this video. A BD 000, the smallest cam on the market, and suppose to be used for direct aid only, but will hold a fall when placed properly. (even with only two lobes engaged) This is NOT recommended at all, it just proves that small cams work.no it shoes that small cams MAY work ... you can place a gear "correctly" on lead ... and despite your best efforts it may walk ever so lightly, and with microcams that may be all it takes not to mention that if you are at the limit on a free climb placing microgear ... you dont exactly have the luxury of sitting there for a long time making a "perfect" placement there a video of a grit climber taking a 20-30 foot fall soloing ... doest it man that fall for that height ARE survivable? ... nope it shows that you MAY survive one if yr very lucky let me ask you this, how many falls do YOU take on microgear? ;) |
bearbreeder wrote: no it shoes that small cams MAY work ... , how many falls do YOU take on microgear? ;)Alright whatever dude. You could say that about any gear. That's why all of our gear states "climbing is inherently dangerous", because the shit is dangerous. My point is that small cams DO work. There are a million different scenarios in which any type or size of gear can fail. Again, that why they let you know ahead of time that "this shit is dangerous". I wouldn't say that I regularly whip on micro gear, however I definitely whipped on micro or small gear that has held like it was suppose to. I have also whipped on small gear that has completely blown out, sometimes you don't get perfect placements and make due. I'm not suggesting to whip on 000's, I even stated that in my initial post. The video was merely to demonstrate that small cams work. |
Jonathan Dull wrote: I definitely whipped on micro or small gear that has held like it was suppose to. I have also whipped on small gear that has completely blown out, sometimes you don't get perfect placements and make due. I'm not suggesting to whip on 000's, I even stated that in my initial post. The video was merely to demonstrate that small cams work.Did someone suggest that small cams will never hold? I don't think you understood what bear breeder wrote. |
Jonathan Dull wrote: Alright whatever dude. You could say that about any gear. That's why all of our gear states "climbing is inherently dangerous", because the shit is dangerous. My point is that small cams DO work. There are a million different scenarios in which any type or size of gear can fail. Again, that why they let you know ahead of time that "this shit is dangerous". I wouldn't say that I regularly whip on micro gear, however I definitely whipped on micro or small gear that has held like it was suppose to. I have also whipped on small gear that has completely blown out, sometimes you don't get perfect placements and make due. I'm not suggesting to whip on 000's, I even stated that in my initial post. The video was merely to demonstrate that small cams work.if a small cam works 9/10 times ... what happens on the 10th time if you arent backed up? hmmmm ... again small cams MAY hold ... plug em in by all means but dont TRUST any single one .. here's someone whose VERY experienced in gear ... and has a small cam blow, fortunately hes backed up ... at 2 min in ... youtube.com/watch?v=rkV4-cR… there are many variables in why gear blows and why it holds ... you may not need to "know the math" ... but you sure as hell better know what things affect whether gear holds - dynamic belays - rope stretchiness - rope drag - gear placement - angle changes in the rope - belay device - rock quality - camming angle and how do you think these things are quantified? ... in a lab, then applied in the real world ... my partners and i probably take 100+ whippers on micronut and cams in a climbing year .... ive walked 15+ people of this microgear climb alone for their first "11a" lead and caught many whippers on it  theres certain climbs that ive taken 20+ whippers on microgear on alone ... which is how my green peanuts turn gray, get deformed, and the wires start breaking apart ;) |
David Coley wrote:Hi, do you know which edition of DAV Panorama the tables were from? I'm trying to track down the original experimental protocol. Thanks.from the DAV the first set of tables that indicate the braking/toprunner force and rope run through is from here alpenverein.de/chameleon/pu… the second set of tables with the belay methods and the impact of different belay styles is from here alpenverein.de/chameleon/pu… you may also find this article from bergundsteigen (journal of mountain risk management) interesting ... where the found a THINNER 8.9mm rope may provide more breaking power than a thicker 10.5mm one  the also found that dual 8mm require LESS gripping force required than a single thick 10.5mm ... however note that the 8,9mm while providing more breaking power, also requires MORE gripping force ....  bergundsteigen.at/file.php/…(die%20bremskraftverst%E4rker).pdf ;) |
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place 'em deep, tight, and frequently. especially in soft rock. |
Jake Jones wrote:Don't discount the importance of a dynamic belay on small gear. Most often we think of a dynamic belay in terms of the "soft" effect it has on the climber, but it can reduce forces on your top piece as well. A dynamic belay isn't always possible, especially if you're doing multi and off the ground, but it's worth considering.Here's some really interesting empirical data regarding dynamic belay and the force on the top piece: rockandice.com/lates-news/w… On the scary side, note that a .16FF fall with a light (145lb) climber can generate up to 1300lbs (almost 6kN) of force on the top piece. That's past the rated strength of a lot of small gear. |
bearbreeder wrote: if a small cam works 9/10 times ... what happens on the 10th time if you arent backed up? my partners and i probably take 100+ whippers on micronut and cams in a climbing year .... ive walked 15+ people of this microgear climb alone for their first "11a" lead and caught many whippers on it theres certain climbs that ive taken 20+ whippers on microgear on alone ... which is how my green peanuts turn gray, get deformed, and the wires start breaking apart ;)WOW! Sorry if I offended you micro-whip-master-flex! I was just simply stating that small cams work. Also providing a video from one of my favorite local crags that inspires a bit of confidence in really small gear. As you can see there is a bolt just below the 000, making it a safe fall if it were to blow. I never said small gear doesn't pull, nor did I say to only trust a single piece. You actually made several assumptions about everything I said and inserted words that I never typed. I do however look forward to more assumptions and inserted text. Also, could you please post more photos of yourself and micro master buddies...Another thing, could you tell me where this micro-eating 11a is at; of course so I can plug one piece, trust one that piece, whip and blow that piece, then deck and break my legs...Because this is pretty much the assumption you made about my climbing style, which is in no way correct. I would actually consider myself a very competent and safe climber, aware of all the factors you mentioned. |
Jonathan Dull wrote: WOW! Sorry if I offended you micro-whip-master-flex! I was just simply stating that small cams work. Also providing a video from one of my favorite local crags that inspires a bit of confidence in really small gear. As you can see there is a bolt just below the 000, making it a safe fall if it were to blow. I never said small gear doesn't pull, nor did I say to only trust a single piece. You actually made several assumptions about everything I said and inserted words that I never typed. I do however look forward to more assumptions and inserted text. Also, could you please post more photos of yourself and micro master buddies...Another thing, could you tell me where this micro-eating 11a is at; of course so I can plug one piece, trust one that piece, whip and blow that piece, then deck and break my legs...Because this is pretty much the assumption you made about my climbing style, which is in no way correct. I would actually consider myself a very competent and safe climber, aware of all the factors you mentioned.why dont YOU most up the microgear youved whipped on ... im sure you have a few piece yr the one going off about going out "What you need to know about small gear is how to place it. Thats it" so i assume that youve whipped extensively on microgear to make the above statement ,,, heres a few for ya ... crux piece is a green peanut .. which is why mine has now turned gray ... or purple TCU  crux piece is small nuts to purple/blue TCUs  crux piece is a green alien or purple TCU ... or a micronut ... thats after the rock broke and the old pin came out, before that you still backed up the rusty pin with a blue/purple TCU  crux piece is a purple/gray TCU/micronut ... or if your willing to take a slighly larger fall a green alien  the simple fact is that youll need to place microgear in squamish to get into the 11s, 12s and above ... and you WILL whip on em if you want to send ... many times over and over again ... and it WILL pull sooner or later now how about YOU post up some of the tips cracks you lead and whip on ... or some of YOUR well used and whipped on microgear thats mangled ... ive posted mine up on the last page ;) |
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OK, I see where this is leading and I dont want to see your cocks so lets just go climbing and stay off the interweb for a while. we are all going to die, place good gear while you can. |
Jake Jones wrote: The most interesting thing about this test IMO is that as expected the impact force went up as expected with the static belay, because the rope loses some elasticity with each fall. With the dynamic belay, even though this is still the case, the impact force went down as the belayer "got in the groove" of timing his hop more appropriately (or so the article states). Just goes to show you that good belaying can make a hell of a difference. I climb like old people fuck, but at least I'm welcome in any crowd to belay because people I climb with know that I take it really seriously. Speak for yourself MJPhobes.one important note is that dynamic belaying is useless if there is enough drag ... everyone has been on climbs where they whipped and their belayer didnt even feel much force ... which is why its absolutely important to keep drag to a minimum on climbs with less than perfect gear when possible ... ;) |
