"prussiking" without any slings or cords

all right ...

as promised heres some random blabbing on how to make the hedden style knots (including the penberthy) super gripping

just a warning ... this is not a "how to" ... its how i do it ... you could die ... you should seek professional instruction ... i could be a 10 year old kid typing this all out on his nonmindo gaming system for all MPers know ...

first i want to start with the hedden, as its the simplest ... i assume everyone knows how to tie one its basically an upside down kleimheist ...

we need to separate the different parts of the knot into

- the inner coils
- the outer coils
- the additional or bottom coils

mr. prohaska's diagram from Nylon HIghway #30 in my above post shows this quite clearly

the below is using a 7mm red mammut static cord on an 8mm orange edelrid merlin dynamic rope

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1. the first part i want to touch on is the inner coils of the knot ... they are the ones that you wind UPWARD right above the eye

inner coils hedden

now what most people do with a kleimheist or a hedden is the simply put the end in the hole to finish (thats what she or he said!) ... the problem as you can see below when working with similar size cord is that the stiffness of the cord keeps the inner coils from binding

loose inner coils on a finished hedden, wont grip

the solution is to re-wrap the line DOWNWARDS back to the eye over the inner coils ... these are called outer coils they serve to secure the inner coils to the rope, thus increasing the grip ... usually anywhere from 1-3 wraps downwards will do the trick

rewrapping twice downwards for the outer coils to finish

as you can see now the coils are griping ... now some of the outer coils will straighten out under load as in the pic, thats no big deal ... the tension is on the inner coils regardless

re-wrapped hedden under tension

to release you simply loosen the outer coil strand slightly ... the more coils the hard it is to work loose of course

loosening hedden

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2. the second way to increase the holding power and make the knot easier to release IMO is to add a bottom coil UNDER the eye ....

you can see this below, we basically start the hedden with one wrap under the eye

wrap under eye for bottom coil, prohaska hedden

now wrap it above like a normal hedden, up with inner and finish with outer coils

prohaska hedden wrapping coils

and voila ... we have a prohaska-hedden variation with better gripping power IMO

prohaska-hedden variation finished

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3. now lets get to the penberthy .... since its a hedden style knot we can increase its holding power by adding a bottom coil and outer coils

tie the normal overhand and add a single wrap BELOW the eye ..

penberthy bottom coil

tie it upwards with inner coils normally, and then finish with 1-3 outer coils back down to the eye

penberthy inner then outer coils

et voila ... youll find the specific number of inner/outer coils youll need for it to hold, it all depends on the cord, the rope and the conditions

finished penberthy with bottom, inner, outer coils

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4. now a bit of body weight testing ... FYI my lard AZN lazy azz weights 170 lbs or so ... also as a WARNING your results may vary from mine depending on the materials, conditions and knot tying skills ...

the following pics used the 8mm dynamic rope as the prussik cord, and the 7mm static cord as the "rope" ... basically a scenario you should never have using the thicker cord as the prussik

here is the prohaska-penberthy (for lack of a better term) with bottom/inner/outer coils ... i grabbed it while it was under load to take the pic

prohaska-penberthy under load 8mm orange on 7mm red

here is the proshaska-hedden (again for lack of a better term) under load ....

prohaska-hedden under load 8mm orange on 7mm red

i tried a 4 wrap prussik with the same materials ... it simply wouldnt grip at all ...

4 wrap prussik failed to grip, 8mm orange on 7mm red

a bellunese, or 6 coil blakes hitch did grip generally, but there might be some slip ...

bellunese under load 8mm orange on 7mm red

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5. now of course you can use the same bottom/inner/outer technique with webbing, though its not as necessary as slings are generally nice and pliable (unlike stiff cord) and this helps the grip

prohaska-hedden ... bottom coils, inner coils, then finish with outer coils

25mm nylon sling on 7mm cord under load

prohaska-hedden under load 25mm red sling on 7mm red cord

just to give you and idea on the ABSURD gripping power of the prohaska-hedden with webbing ... here is a 10mm dynex sling on a ~2-3mm nylon string under full body weight (i was worried the string would break and id go SPLAT)

prohaska-hedden under load 10mm dynex sling on string

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as a final note ... all this variation of course increases the complexity of the hedden/penberthy ... but IMO its not that hard to remember with a slight bit of practice

the basic hedden/penberthy is still exceptionally easy to tie and remember for years IMO ... and works well on cord/slings

when would you need all this holding power? .... well if your dealing with half and twin ropes and need to work off a single strand it may be useful ... but in that case i recommend you use the prohaska-hedden on a nylon sling rather than cord, it will hold better and release easier

or if youre trying to use and old stiff rope for friction hitches on the same size diameter ...

realistically most climbers wont need or use these variations ...

thanks of course to those who research and tested these knots and variations decades ago, mr penberthy, prohaska and bachmann

and thats all there is to it folks

;)

so in the end, you're using cord or slings anyway??

it's interesting, but I would have just called this the application of the penberthy hitch thread, or sex and a clinton abridged

Buff Johnson wrote:so in the end, you're using cord or slings anyway?? it's interesting, but I would have just called this the application of the penberthy hitch thread, or sex and a clinton abridged

no youre using the rope as shown in the first post in an emergency if you LACK slings or cord ... its a skill just like biner brakes, munters, etc ...

in the following posts, the additional information was done on separate cord similar size for visual clarity for how to increase the holding power ...

as the hitch will generally hold on same size cord/rope ... ie. the tail end of the rope

the sling with the hedden variations is just an extra bit of stuff for those who are interested on something that grips on thin single half/twins

to put it simply, those who are interested and understand ..... will get it

those who dont, theyll keep on h8ting
;)

don't hate the kbear

Buff -The kbear kinda sucks....next you'll be breedin' 'em.

Here's one vote to Go back to tigger and piglet. That was one of best pics ever

kbear gotta climb

bearbreeder wrote: to put it simply, those who are interested and understand ..... will get it

I can confirm - I am interested and I get it.

Thanks again breeder, now what about that column?!

Andy P. wrote: I can confirm - I am interested and I get it. Thanks again breeder, now what about that column?!

Screw that column!.. Haha, just kidding. It's just I ended up spending an hour yesterday showing people I didn't know some of the stuff Bearbreeder put up on this thread plus basic self rescue. I had to see if that blakes hitch would work with webbing. I carry webbing to bail off of so I had to know whether it would really work. About the time I figured it out I also noticed I was the only one interested.

Hey Bear, Why you let others get to you? You need to let that shit go especially when they're doing it just to fuck with you. Anyway.. Thank you for the information!

Curious, why don't you prussik with the accessory cord you use to hold up your chalk bag? Seems easier to me.

Josh Olson wrote:Curious, why don't you prussik with the accessory cord you use to hold up your chalk bag? Seems easier to me.

You could have dropped it while tying the prussik ... Or you might need two prussiks and only have one

Or some other reason why u might not have one

The idea is to know what to do with minimal gear should you need

Same with munters, biner brakes, rope anchors, etc ...

;)

BB, thanks for an informative post. I for one learned something, the Prohaska variation on the Hedden knot.

There are a number of variations on the Hedden knot by Franz Bachmann, who discovered that keeping the lower loop from binding actually increases the holding power of the knot. This is probably what makes the Penberthy knot so strong, and may account for part of the increased holding power of the Prohaska variant. See, for example,

gudelius.de/friction_knots.htm

and

gudelius.de/fb1.htm

rgold wrote:BB, thanks for an informative post. I for one learned something, the Prohaska variation on the Hedden knot. There are a number of variations on the Hedden knot by Franz Bachmann, who discovered that keeping the lower loop from binding actually increases the holding power of the knot. This is probably what makes the Penberthy knot so strong, and may account for part of the increased holding power of the Prohaska variant. See, for example,

if you dont already have this link ...

a more in depth resource for mr bachmann's knot is here ... with a bit of google-translate-fu

eneafiorentini.it/icorsroc/…

mr bachmann indicates that the eye helps release the knot and increases the hold ... also that the single strand version holds better because loading a single strand vs both increases the friction ...

Fig.1.2.3.1
Nodo FB-asola semplice



;)

Blakes hitch. 6mm static on 4/5 static rope. It holds.
Blakes hitch 6mm static on 4/5mm static and it holds.
Blakes hitch, 6mm static holding both 4/5mm static and 10mm dynamic with broken sheath. It holds.
blakes hitch: 10mm on 4/5mm static. It DOESN'T hold.
Blakes hitch: 10mm dynamic on 6mm static. It DOESN'T hold.

the blake holds pretty well, so does the bellunese ... the problem is can someone who is shown it for a day remember it years down the road with minimal practice?

interestingly enough mr prohaska also likely invented the "blakes hitch" back in the 1981 when it was shown to austrian mountain guides ....

nylon highway #30

now dont wuss out this weekend again joe ... just cause the forecast said 100 km winds and 50mm+ rain last sunday is no reason to miss rescue practice ...

think of it as a way to wash yr ropes naturally in the squamish rain ;)

washing ropes naturally ... bluffs

passing knot with hedden

escaping belay + counterbalance rap with hedden

Excellent bearbreeder. It would be interesting to see some load test figures.
BTW, manual focus on your camera will avoid focussing on the background rather than your knots.

This is a great thread! Love it.

But returning to the question of escaping the system or prusiking without slings, one solution is to remember to tie your chalk bag on using cord and to only use grigri or reverso (-type) devices to belay with. You then have all you need to escape or prusik (the latter slowly).