First In Line Etiquette Question, aka Early Ice Season Shenanigans

OZONE wrote:First In Line Etiquette Question ... Thoughts?

Wow, if those tool bags think you're an a-hole, then the guy that taught me to climb is the world's worst human being. The first summer that I was learning to trad climb involved something like 20+ trips up into the Park. Needless to say, by mid-summer, my mentor and I were quite fit. I think one of his favorite activities was "busting" people on the trail up to Loch or Glacier Gorge, i.e. beating people to whatever climb we were after by flying past them on the trail at mach 5. Not only that, but one of his favorite games was the following (dickish...I dunno, but pretty funny). Folks would be camped in one of the "condos" up below Spearhead and thus would have the jump on us car-to-car types that only had one day off from work to do a route. Well, when we would enter the final valley below Spearhead, my partner would keep his headlamp on and bumble his way up the trail like a gumby that didn't know where he was going. The condo folks would think, "Eh, we have 15-20 minutes till he gets here...we'll beat'm to the start". Unfortunately for them, my mentor had sent me (the young kid newb), sprinting like Seabiscuit with my lamp turned off up to the base of the climb. All of sudden they would hear me behind them, and they would let out a loud "Fuck!!!" as they knew they were hosed. I guess they shoulda gotten up earlier, eh?

In short, screw those losers. If you beat them to the climb because they are slow R-tards, then tough sh*t.

Stich wrote:Wow. Just found this note on our car window at Garden of the Gods. I obviously wasn't the one with the ridiculous soul patch.

Their only valid point was the one regarding the soul patch.

Seriously folks, you owe it to your friends with soul patches to kick them in the nuts until they agree to shave that shit off.

I've always assumed that the party at the base of the route first got first dibs, but I've also known that if I spent more than 5 minutes eating/talking/peeing at the base of the route, I lose my spot in line. In crowded areas, shit or get off the pot.

Unless there's something more to these stories, the note-writer was clearly having a really bad day at best (fully psychotic at worst). I've got to admit that's one of the funniest "angry climber" manifestations I've ever seen.

Like everyone else has said, you were clearly in the right ozone. And to answer your question about when you yield, it's a case by case thing (as is damn near every other "ethics"-related climbing situation). We're all climbers, most of us "a cut above" as Kalous likes to say, and usually all seek reasonable solutions. Though I guess if everyone believed that, this forum wouldn't exist.

mostly unrelated post, but I took my small child to a local top-rope rock with only 1 route. we were the first ones to the parking lot and we could not go the most direct route because he was only 4 and couldn't do some of the rock hopping to get to the spot. so a group that got to the lot after us beat us there by a minute. they were cool though and let us climb on their rope. glad i haven't run into any guys like the ones that wrote that note, yet.

r_m_high wrote:

Amen.

Nick Stayner wrote:Unless there's something more to these stories, the note-writer was clearly having a really bad day at best

Nope these are the facts and they're undisputed.
It would be interesting to here from the guys who wrote the note. To here how they see it. I'm sure they're out there,...lurking,... somewhere.
I can sympathize with them to a point. I was shut down three times this month trying to get on this route. I (as I'm sure we all do) know the frustration that comes with unrealized plans. I just don't threaten to slash tires over it.

Brian Scoggins wrote: Their only valid point was the one regarding the soul patch. Seriously folks, you owe it to your friends with soul patches to kick them in the nuts until they agree to shave that shit off.

So this is a no go?

YES!!

OZONE wrote: It would be interesting to here from the guys who wrote the note. To here how they see it.

Or at least an interesting troll :)

If you're first to the climb, you're first to climb it. Plain and simple. The queue doesn't start in the parking lot. There are plenty of situations where this might seem dickish (climbing slowly, sprinting very near the climb, etc) but it doesn't sound like any of these apply here.

Scott McMahon wrote: That's the standard in the flatirons it seems, with all the easy access to moderate multipitch. Then I have to spend the rest of the climb having to climb underneath their ropes because they can only manage to stay 10 feet in front of me, or because I can climb faster leading a party of three than they can with 2.

What moderate route in the Flatirons can you not just climb around a party in front of you at will? I'm passed a ton of slow parties on the Flatirons... if people are slow in front of you, climb 5 feet to the left or right and go around.

Julius Beres wrote: What moderate route in the Flatirons can you not just climb around a party in front of you at will? I'm passed a ton of slow parties on the Flatirons... if people are slow in front of you, climb 5 feet to the left or right and go around.

Oh I don't mind getting passed whatsover. And truthfully I know to expect that kind of stuff in the flats anyways, but it seems to typically happen where the routes tend to narrow a bit and we already are on a line. One example is on the final pitch on the 3rd flat. We were the 2nd party lined up on the belay ledge waiting to lead the next pitch. I'm literally seconds away from starting up and the party behind us decides they are going to lead right past us. Maybe he had never climbed that route before, but I ended up having to unclip his first piece and go under his rope while leading. And this was after the 1st party decided to pass us right before the ledge, and their leader then had to downclimb after getting off "route" while his partner was simuling. 15 feet and I had to go under 2 ropes by other parties that felt the need to pass, then decided to slow down.

Best analogy is the people that fly by you on the highway, get in front of you and then slow back down. I'll always defer to a faster party, but if your gonna pass keep the speed going.

But like you said...it's the flatirons. :o)

I'd be happy to handle it face-to-face, but didn't have the chance to talk to "Ozone." If the situation was reversed and we didn't get up early enough to be in line "first" (there was actually another party there before all of us and I didn't try to out-race them to the climb either), I would do (and have done) the gentlemanly thing, ask their intentions, and yielded the route since they got there first and unless they were unreasonably slow - which we were not. We didn't frantically gear up on the car as Trask and his buddy did specifically with the intention of snaking other climbers.

As far as training and foot racing goes, not many who know me think I'm lacking in either department.

My apologies for the angry note, but I thought it was a pretty crappy thing to do to us and the other party who was also there earlier, and it was the second time I'd been there in 4 days and still haven't gotten on the route (skunked by the rangers the first time) - and I guess I won't unless I gear up at home and sprint out of the car.

I guess I was brought up in a different time under a different ethic. Sorry to see this is where things are going. Guess I'll take up knitting.

I hope Ozone is happy that the MP community could validate him.

One summer day in RMNP I set out to climb the southwest corner of the Saber. My partner and I proceeded with a steady alpine stride and found ourselves comfortably making progress past Loch Vale. Then out of nowhere two older men laid claim to the trail. When they passed I feebly asked "Hey what route are you climbing?" You guessed it...

To this day I have never told anyone two fifty year old men bested me in an alpine hiking duel. They crushed the route too. They were men among boys.

Beat me to the base, the route is all yours.

Kevin Craig wrote:I'd be happy to handle it face-to-face, but didn't have the chance to talk to "Ozone." If the situation was reversed and we didn't get up early enough to be in line "first" (there was actually another party there before all of us and I didn't try to out-race them to the climb either), I would do (and have done) the gentlemanly thing, ask their intentions, and yielded the route since they got there first and unless they were unreasonably slow - which we were not. We didn't frantically gear up on the car as Trask and his buddy did specifically with the intention of snaking other climbers. As far as training and foot racing goes, not many who know me think I'm lacking in either department. My apologies for the angry note, but I thought it was a pretty crappy thing to do to us and the other party who was also there earlier, and it was the second time I'd been there in 4 days and still haven't gotten on the route (skunked by the rangers the first time) - and I guess I won't unless I gear up at home and sprint out of the car. I guess I was brought up in a different time under a different ethic. Sorry to see this is where things are going. Guess I'll take up knitting. I hope Ozone is happy that the MP community could validate him.

All facts aside and this isn't a personal attack, but an anonymous note threating to slash his tires? It sucks to have someone squeeze in front of you, but that respone is a bit extreme IMO. Whether ozone was wrong or right, that response isn't much of an "ethic". Verbally berating them over beers with your partner is much more amicable.

This could all be sorted out so much easier

possibly even online through reservations.gov for all routes inside parks - just like Half Dome hiking permits.

A new black market for scalpers would arise and offer dirtbags another income venue.

Scott McMahon wrote: All facts aside and this isn't a personal attack, but an anonymous note threating to slash his tires? It sucks to have someone squeeze in front of you, but that respone is a bit extreme IMO. Whether ozone was wrong or right, that response isn't much of an "ethic". Verbally berating them over beers with your partner is much more amicable.

Yeah, well, that particular instant was not my best moment, I'll admit. To be fair, I didn't say "slash" there's this little valve thingy on each tire, but interesting that everyone's mind jumped to slash from flat. And in the end no harm was done.

Seems like complaining about the note to your partner over beers would be more amicable than running to MP for validation too, but I guess that's what everyone does these days. (EDIT - this is a comment on Scott's comment)

EDIT - FWIW, Ozone and I seem to have arrived at a mutually acceptable understanding via PM. Hopefully we'll meet under better circumstances in the future.

"My apologies for the angry note, but I thought it was a pretty crappy thing to do to us and the other party who was also there earlier, and it was the second time I'd been there in 4 days and still haven't gotten on the route (skunked by the rangers the first time) - and I guess I won't unless I gear up at home and sprint out of the car.

I guess I was brought up in a different time under a different ethic. Sorry to see this is where things are going. Guess I'll take up knitting."

Really? I was brought up in a time where threats of property damage (ever had to get towed off of Pikes Peak? It ain't cheap) over moving quickly was completely unacceptable. Different eras I guess.

You were fine until the tire-draining comment. That is, "You're a fucking tool!" rolls off most people's backs. Maybe they reflect on it and become better people for it. "You're a fucking tool and I'll let the air out of your tires!" makes you sound unbalanced, and whatever justification you may have had went out the window. They didn't block you in so you couldn't keep up. They just recognized (as you should've) that if they didn't get on the thing, fast, they wouldn't get on the thing, period. I have definitely racked up in the car so that I could get on my objective as quickly as possible and minimize the amount of time people behind me had to wait.

It sounds to me like, since you'd been snaked before, you should've been ready to rock as soon as the gate came open if for no other reason than because you'd been snaked before. Moreover, you should've taken the high road and just been better in the future, rather than letting your anger get the better of you. If you're going to criticize people for poor behavior, you might avoid threats in your criticism.

//edit to address the tire-slashing misread. Criticism still stands: letting the air out of somebody's tires in downtown Denver is funny and inconvenient. Letting the air out of somebody's tires in the mountains could cost hundreds of dollars.

I dont contribute much to this scene but since I was personally involved I would like to say that Kevin and I have since been in contact and we have kissed and made up.........I truly at times think the responses on this site are piss your pant funny but this is one that I would rather not throw gas on.... I think Kevin and I can both agree that we both wanna live in a world where morals still stand up and I have since said my peace and apologized for being inconsiderate. Lets let this one go boys ok?? Cheers Kevin