Silent Partner Leading...

Before a piece is weighted it is tested so I'm holding onto it. It's not going to blow suddenly unless I didn't test it!

When it's awkward or overhanding I'll use one adjustable and one standard daisy, but 99 percent of the time I don't use daisies. Even on gently overhanding routes like Artist tears there is no need for a daisy.

Also, don't expect to go fast until you have logged a lot of miles.

Woah Woah Woah,

When you say "It's not going to blow suddenly unless I didn't test it!", this is not true. Almost every fall I have taken aiding was a piece that I had tried to pull out by bouncing on it and had been standing on for a bit.

As for daisies being good:
On the first pitch of Artist Tears I was at the second or third empty angle hole. My hook blew out the bottom of the hole and I fell onto the hook (which was attached to me with a daisy) that I had just (as in a second before) placed in the next empty hole. It held.

I am real glad that it held because a fall for 25 feet down a slab to decking would suck.

I bought a new 10.2 dry rope exlusively for use with the silent partner, and I was shocked to find that the clove hitch on the silent partner (used as directed) would not cynch, the drum on the device did, but the rope on the clove hitch just slipped and WOULD NOT BIND!!!. Then I got my fryaed 10.5 and it worked well, I am curious, did anyone else have this kind of problem? the manuel says a supple new 10.2 will work well, so I suppose the new eidellweiess rope I got is a little stiff, perhaps the "suppleness" is the key word. I am very glad I decided to test this out before I tied in...

So since leading some with the 10.5 I love the SP. The only issue that I want to figure out, is how to make the top rope feed better for the few feet when I am leading and make a clip over the waistline, this is important to me because there is already enogh slack in the syestem, and to be able to have the rope reel in as I climb to the piece I just cliped would feel much more secure than dealing with a few feet of extra slack until I climb above the piece, especially with a ledge below. anyone have any suggestions? thanks

another problem is the clove hitch tightening from climbing above a clip that is down and to the right -- assuming the live end is feeding out of the left side of the device. i am convicnced a swivel made for climbing/rescue purposes would eliminate this issue. swivel such as this one has a breaking point of 36kn... would 36kn be sufficiant to hold a leader fall? the obvious disadvantage of using a swivel syestem is that the swivel is the weak link, and difficult to back up.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:. Agreed, I could tie off both of the first two bolts, even better would be a unidirectional trad anchor at the bottom. This vid was not the first time I intentionally whipped on the SP. I took falls with TR back ups at first. Besides, anyone who has ever trad climbed has relied on one piece of gear alot. I'm not saying this set up is best or even safe. I'm asking for ways to improve it and that's what I've been getting thus far. Thank you for contributing.

I used this resourse to get started with my SP and have returned because of problems building a sufficient ground anchor; the post about the single bolt indoors has got me thinking as to what is actually needed in a ground anchor. Untill now I have just worked on the basis of a top rope anchor being at least two points of protection totalling ABOVE 17 kn (3820 lbs); for safety above say 25kn (5620 lbs ); my theory is that at around 10kn (2240 lbs) force at the climber he/she will be lucky not to have internal injuries. So 10kn (2240 lbs) at the climber works out at 17kn (3820 lbs) for the top rope anchor ( or last pieces of protection ) and had forgotten that it is about 7kn (1570 lbs ) at the belayer.
Using the SP, the ground anchor force would be the same as the belayer, so placing two nuts each capable of say holding 5kn (1120 lbs ) each should be adequate. Thats two mighty small nuts and I have walked away from routes with far more strong ground anchors. There is the problem that the rock may blow before the gear fails, ie the gear is rated at 5kn ( 1120 lbs) but the rock rips at 2kn (449 lbs ).
So my question is for those with experiance is what is the minimum you would use to build a safe ground anchor when using your SP outdoor trad climbing ?

(Forces copied from) southeastclimbing.com/faq/f…
Warning ! theories may be complete rubbish, thats why I am asking.
Thanks for reading
Cheers
Phil ( from the UK )

phil456 wrote: I used this resourse to get started with my SP and have returned because of problems building a sufficient ground anchor; the post about the single bolt indoors has got me thinking as to what is actually needed in a ground anchor. Untill now I have just worked on the basis of a top rope anchor being at least two points of protection totalling ABOVE 17 kn (3820 lbs); for safety above say 25kn (5620 lbs ); my theory is that at around 10kn (2240 lbs) force at the climber he/she will be lucky not to have internal injuries. So 10kn (2240 lbs) at the climber works out at 17kn (3820 lbs) for the top rope anchor ( or last pieces of protection ) and had forgotten that it is about 7kn (1570 lbs ) at the belayer. Using the SP, the ground anchor force would be the same as the belayer, so placing two nuts each capable of say holding 5kn (1120 lbs ) each should be adequate. Thats two mighty small nuts and I have walked away from routes with far more strong ground anchors. There is the problem that the rock may blow before the gear fails, ie the gear is rated at 5kn ( 1120 lbs) but the rock rips at 2kn (449 lbs ). So my question is for those with experiance is what is the minimum you would use to build a safe ground anchor when using your SP outdoor trad climbing ? (Forces copied from) southeastclimbing.com/faq/f… Warning ! theories may be complete rubbish, thats why I am asking. Thanks for reading Cheers Phil ( from the UK )

Phil, since the OP I have used the SP on many outdoor single pitches. I built a 3-point upward pointing anchor plus one more piece to hold the anchor up from sagging.

As for your numbers, rope stretch will adequtely lessen the load on the anchor. A screamer on the master point will make sure of that. One bomber piece could be safe for an anchor but better to add in more and equalize. This winter I will run a whipper test in JTree and take some pics and vid to share.

I think being safe with an SP is more about philisophy then science. I would only climb things that I'm fairly sure I won't fall on because a SP, no matter the set up, will never be as good as a real belayor not to mention that I'm alone with no one to run for help. For example, I will solo 5.7 anyday and the SP allows me to climb 5.9 confidently but I'm a solid 5.10 trad climber.

johnnyrig wrote:Concerning rebelays to take rope weight, seems to me the problem with clove hitching the draw would be that you face the possibility of a FF2 until you place the next piece. Otherwise, why not use a long sling and maybe a screamer ? Just picked up a SP myself, have yet to try it.

A clove hitch on a long sling will allow the rope below the clove hitch to absorb some of the force of the fall (4' of rope stretch) assuming you have put another piece in above the rebelay. If I am concerned about a F2 I will clip directly into the piece, which will decrease the fall factor slightly. It will limit the rope stretch available (with the rope below the rebelay)to the distance between the clove hitch and the upper biner.

The general rule is NOT to use slings unless absolutely necessary as the added friction will prevent or at least decrease the necessity of using a rebelay. Also you need to consider the weight of rope on each side of the SP for it to perform the best. At the beginning of the pitch there will be little rope weight on the anchor side, so you need to use a short loop to your backup knot. At the end of the pitch the rope weight will be much more, so it becomes necessary to use a bigger loop to balance the weight.

With practice you should be able to get your rope solo levels near your regular lead level depending on your mental state. Some pitches would be next to impossible to lead with a partner. Where you are struggling with rope drag up the last 30 feet of a pitch, when soloing you have the least rope challenges at the end of your pitches. Imagine climbing the Diamond in three 70m pitches or the Cynical Pinnacle in two. Although rope soloing adds a whole new complexity to leading, it also brings a freedom that is hard to top.

BTW I do not endorse the unorthodox use of the SP as shown by the OP in his video. It is easy to use the device as directed and gives the safest results. I will often anchor to a single bolt, then pull the rope tight and clove a draw into the second as an anchor on a bolted climb. Trees and large rocks are also your friends, so bring some cord. I get good results with a dry treated 9.7, stiffer ropes feed better than soft ones. I do only use a single backup knot unless I know I will be climbing through a crux section that will make tying a second knot difficult to impossible. The more loops you have dangling from your harness the better chance you will get your rope stuck. I prefer to leave my rope at the belay and only climb with the rope needed, rope soloing is difficult enough, having your entire rope on your back is going to make any pitch several grades harder.

Haven't we had these discussions in the past on this site? I am feeling déjà vu.

It's been talked ad nauseam. Truth is that it will never be 100% safe, but neither is a human belayor. I like to make it as simple as possible as there's enough to think about while climbing in the first place.

Also to note is that the piece you would clove hitch to keep off rope weight would have to be upward oriented, since it will be pulled that direction, maybe a mini anchor with two pieces and a sliding X?

S.P.L.T. Image wrote: Also to note is that the piece you would clove hitch to keep off rope weight would have to be upward oriented, since it will be pulled that direction, maybe a mini anchor with two pieces and a sliding X?

Not really. The piece you clove to pretension could be a worthless stopper, it's only job is to hold up the rope and keep the anchor properly oriented so as to avoid cross loading carabiners and shock loading pieces with funky sideways forces. The lower upwards oriented pieces are the true anchor, although that first piece could be the only thing that keeps you from decking if you fall low so that should be considered as well.

BTW the thing I felt you were really missing in your video is the lack of a backup knot. It is important in keeping rope weight off the drum, as that will cinch down the clove and give you rope drag. If you always balance rope weight on either side of the drum you will climb with zero drag( obviously easier to visualize than achieve but still possible).

S.P.L.T. Image wrote: As for your numbers, rope stretch will adequtely lessen the load on the anchor. A screamer on the master point will make sure of that. One bomber piece could be safe for an anchor but better to add in more and equalize.

The screamer is a good idea, I will get one for a marginal ground anchor.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote: This winter I will run a whipper test in JTree and take some pics and vid to share.

Thats brave :-)) looking forward to the vid.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote: will never be as good as a real belayor not to mention that I'm alone with no one to run for help. For example, I will solo 5.7 anyday and the SP allows me to climb 5.9 confidently but I'm a solid 5.10 trad climber.

Agreed, but I do like the peace quite and above all the time for gear and feet placement.
Cheers Phil

johnnyrig wrote:Concerning rebelays to take rope weight, seems to me the problem with clove hitching the draw would be that you face the possibility of a FF2 until you place the next piece. Otherwise, why not use a long sling and maybe a screamer ? Just picked up a SP myself, have yet to try it.

Here's what I do regarding using "lead pro" for rebelays (and I believe this is what Kevin is describing): Use a shoulder length runner and clove the rope into the bottom biner (be sure to pull up as much slack/stretch as possible), then clip the rope through the top biner. This allows the rope to stretch the length of the sling before becoming static (still providing a dynamic belay). If you prefer more stretch than that at that spot (if you think you're gonna fall hard there), simply use a longer sling. I personally use this method all the time, and have done so for many years (never liked the prusik method). By using this method, you also get the benefit of integrating lead pro into the anchor (sometimes needed on pitches with poor anchors. Another advantage is that it takes some of the stretch out of the system on a long pitch giving you a tighter belay, which is usually a good thing when you're soloing and might hit something.

Cool guys, if you have pics to share of your methods please do, I think I get what you're saying but a visual would be nice. Let me show you what I want to avoid.

Good news is that I've located a nice 70m pitch 30 min away that I can put all this stuff to the test. Hopefully I will get out there Monday.

Just throw the rope into a small backpack and have the rope come over your shoulder. Tie knots every 30 feet or so for backup. If set up correctly the rope will feed perfectly out of your pack, over your shoulder and when you feel the knot you know you have to stop and untie it.

The system shown in the pic might be what they recommend but it's a nightmare to manage.

nbrown wrote: Here's what I do regarding using "lead pro" for rebelays (and I believe this is what Kevin is describing): Use a shoulder length runner and clove the rope into the bottom biner (be sure to pull up as much slack/stretch as possible), then clip the rope through the top biner. This allows the rope to stretch the length of the sling before becoming static (still providing a dynamic belay). If you prefer more stretch than that at that spot (if you think you're gonna fall hard there), simply use a longer sling. I personally use this method all the time, and have done so for many years (never liked the prusik method). By using this method, you also get the benefit of integrating lead pro into the anchor (sometimes needed on pitches with poor anchors. Another advantage is that it takes some of the stretch out of the system on a long pitch giving you a tighter belay, which is usually a good thing when you're soloing and might hit something.

I've used an petzl shunt placed upside down as a rebelay in place of a clove hitch or prussik. I've never fallen on it, but I realize that in a fall, the rope would pull tight and stay tight for the rest of the climb (unless you are at the shunt and release the tension). Then I switched from a 10.6mm to a 9.6mm rope and for 30 meter routes I've never had problems with the rope weight on the "anchor" side of the SP.

Some other good SP advice that I found out, nearly the hard way. If you are going to clip pro/bolt up high, remember that as you climb towards and past that piece that the SP does not take slack in. This might seem obvious, but many of us are used to a human belayer taking in slack after we clip a high bolt. If you fall at the bolt, there is more rope in play than you think.

I have found using the Silent Partner that for me it is much easier to just have one back up loop on my harness, and when I run out of rope I just untie and then pull up another 30-40 feet of rope and retie. Sometimes I have to clip off on something or hang to do this, but thats the penalty for using the Silent Partner and being able to move quickly.

shoelace prussiks. they snap if you fall on them and you're on the anchor.

RWC wrote:shoelace prussiks. they snap if you fall on them and you're on the anchor.

If you use this method you have one issue to be very cognizant of, and that is this:

Once at the anchor, be sure to pull up all slack tightly so that when you're cleaning/following the pitch later you won't find yourself anchored to a shoestring (with slack between that piece and the real anchor). This is an issue if you're rapping a seperate line and not the lead line (as in a traversing or roofy pitch), and happens very easily as the weight of the rope on the ground anchor end will cause it to sag. Would kinda suck to fall in that scenario if there was any danger of hitting something below, 'cause the shoestring prussik probably ain't gonna hold. The clove hitch would (and would also protect the rope more from potential rubbing over edges above).

For what its worth, I think the soloist is much simpler and safer tool (have used both) if you understand it's limitations. I fall on mine all the time as I'm oftentimes climbing at or above my free limit.

Three solos of El Cap, two using a Gri-gri as a belay device and one using a Silent Partner.
With the GG, I had to use rebelays (klemhiest knots tied with 3 foot, 5mil cord slings) more often than with the SP. The SP would feed itself quite nicely as I moved if I had a 20-30 foot loop hanging down from my harness.

I use a Screamer at the anchor more to avoid a FF2 fall onto it should the first few pieces pull than anything else.

I've free climbed only a little with the SP and can't really comment on the best way to set it up for that.

The beauty of the Klemhiest knot is that it is a one way knot, it will hold the rope up but when the rope stretches and the knot hits the biner, the knot will release and the rope will flow through, as the rope moves back down, the knot will grab again. I fell on Zenyatta Mondatta and stopped even with a Klemhiest I had tied and watched it release and saw it grabbing the rope later when I was cleaning. With an SP, you only need one to hold the anchor system up and then one mid pitch.

I would NOT use the clove hitch technique at all or ever.

nbrown, I think I understand your point. when I prussik a shoelace I suck the slack up through it to get as much out of the pitch as possible, esp if I don't know where the next anchor is getting built for sure. When I build the upper anchor, tie into it on the end of the rope opposite lower anchor tie-in - so that I am between both anchors, sp still on the same clove - remove slack, if any, between me and upper anchor, downclimb the pitch and clean, tr back up after cleaning lower anchor, adjust upper anchor if neccessary for upward pull, lead next pitch, and so on... (I skipped all the back-up/loop rigging details bcause this is confusing already) a few early-season sp mod multi-pitches done this way are great for getting the jitters out and getting healthy.

RWC wrote:nbrown, I think I understand your point. when I prussik a shoelace I suck the slack up through it to get as much out of the pitch as possible, esp if I don't know where the next anchor is getting built for sure. When I build the upper anchor, tie into it on the end of the rope opposite lower anchor tie-in - so that I am between both anchors, sp still on the same clove - remove slack, if any, between me and upper anchor, downclimb the pitch and clean, tr back up after cleaning lower anchor, adjust upper anchor if neccessary for upward pull, lead next pitch, and so on... (I skipped all the back-up/loop rigging details bcause this is confusing already) a few early-season sp mod multi-pitches done this way are great for getting the jitters out and getting healthy.

Yeah, I agree. There are many different ways to "skin a cat" as they say, so to each his own. I don't think it really matters all that much as long as you've got a good system that you've dialed in. I've used the same system for at least 15 years, probably 2 or more days a week on average, and am still alive to talk about it. Rope soloing is definitely an acquired art.

More elaboration regarding the clove hitch/re-belays that I mentioned earlier: I typically only have to do it once on a normal pitch of climbing, usually planning it strategically in a spot where a fall is less likely to occur anyway. I appreciate not having a huge amount of stretch in the rope if I'm likely to fall near the end of the rope. Solo falls are typically longer than they would be with a belayer to begin with - without adding the bungee effect into the equation.