Seriously? Do you need a torque wrench for bolts?

slim wrote:breaking wedge bolts (or similar) isn't as common as snapping the powers style bolts.

Yeah, and I hate how you just can't tell whats under the head of that cap bolt.

I don't know any mechanic that would use a needle wrench. Famously inaccurate.

Click wrenches have "feel" and don't require the user to hear anything. You'd have to bang one around quite a bit to foul the adjustment.

I´ve tested loads of stainless wedge bolts (probably several hundered by now), I´ve even an article on it somewhere.
For a M10 wedge bolt ultimate failure is at 117Nm/86ft.lbs and the usual overtorquing failure is at 92Nm/68ft.lbs when the small tabs on the clip shear off (this is when the bolt goes `soft´and starts to spin. This is designed in by the manufacturers so you can´t break or weaken the bolt by overtorquing at least according to our manufacturer who should know.
Typically these torque numbers are impossible with a normal spanner.
The actual strength of the bolt when tested is virtually the same no matter the torque applied (including zero) until you break the tabs on the clip where the pull-out resistance drops but only marginally, still 38kN so plenty strong enough.
For multi-piece bolts we have no data as we never use them.

Dan, I think it's great that you have been honest and upfront about this. After reading this whole thread (which is FANTASTIC btw) it appears that your bolts are maybe ok, but maybe not! There is just no way to be sure based on what you have told us. Although I understand that you think your bolts are fine, I firmly believe that you owe it to the climbing community to provide a list of climbs or at least crags that you have bolted. Perhaps one of the several qualified contributors to this thread would even be willing to test one of your bolts in the field. Sometimes you have to man up and choke down your pride a little in order to maintain your self respect (and the respect of others).

Jim Titt wrote:Typically these torque numbers are impossible with a normal spanner. The actual strength of the bolt when tested is virtually the same no matter the torque applied (including zero) until you break the tabs on the clip where the pull-out resistance drops but only marginally, still 38kN so plenty strong enough. For multi-piece bolts we have no data as we never use them.

You have 10mm threaded wedge bolts that hold 38kN? Are they made out of grade eight stock? Thirty eight kilonewtons is pretty strong for a 10mm wedge. That is stronger than any 3/8" wedge bolt out there, as far as I know.

As far as torque goes, I believe it is pretty easy to get a lot of torque applied to a bolt. I have never tested a standard box wrench, but I can generate something like 200 ft/ lbs with a 1/2" x 22" spanner. When I used to work as a welder, I would assemble large trailers with huge 1"+ grade eight bolts. I would tighten them with a 3/4" pneumatic impact driver rated for something like 800 ft/lbs. Afterwards, I would use a 3/4" x 24" spanner to tighten them further. The fact that I was able to turn the bolt implies that I was able to apply in excess of 800 ft/ lbs of torque to the bolt. So I think it is completely possible to apply in excess of 100 ft/lbs with anything larger than a small run of the mill Wal-Mart box wrench.

As far as sleeved anchors, like the Power-Bolt, I can say it is completely possible to compromise the strength of the bolt by overtightening it. I do it all the time. I have had to remove hundreds of 3/8" SS Power-Bolts here in Hawaii. Because the cone is often fused to the machine bolt, I generally have to break the bolt by overtightning it in order to get the thing out. When I pull the bolt out, there are circular torsion stress marks that run along the length of the bolt that occurred by overtightning it. It appears that before the Power-Bolt will fail from overtightning, the bolt will spin around creating torsion stress, thereby reducing the strength of the bolt, but not causing failure until too many turns are generated.

Also, do you have a photo of the bolt you are referencing with the tabs that will break off? Are they like the tabs on the Hilti Kwik 3 bolt? I was always under the understanding that those tabs only exist to grab the rock so the expansion clip stays in place like it should.

An M10 stainless (316) wedge bolt usually holds 42-44kN but we rate them at 38kN as this is the lowest we have seen. That´s a pretty typical value from all the major companies in Europe.
There are also ones available which fail around the 10kN level, even ones made in Germany and that is the reason we test before we put them on the market, not everything that shines is gold!

With a standard 17mm spanner which is 190/200mm long or just under 8") I can pull 62Nm/46ftlb before the pain in my hand becomes too much and there is risk of injury.

If you can pull over 800ft/lbs with a 24" wrench then you should be in the Olympics since that means you applied over 400lbs on the end! Or of course it means you believe you achieved the rating on one of the most notoriously innacurate pieces of equipment ever made and used an air dump directly attatched to the tool instead of miles of flexible hose, my smaller air wrench is rated to 200Nm and I can stop it by hand if I use two hose extensions on it.
We tighten the head bolts on Volvo generators to 800Nm (590ft/lbs) and use a two metre torque wrench for the last bit!

The tabs engage in the rock so the clip stays still and doesn´t rotate while the cone pulls through and expands it, when the tabs are overloaded they either gouge through the rock if it is soft or the tabs fail in hard rock.

Failed tabs

This is a bolt I cut out of the rock after it had failed, the tabs have distorted and gouged into the cone making the groove you can see which prevents the clip from properly sliding any further up the cone and makes the pull-out resistance lower. This one actually pulled a long way out and failed at the base of the cone when it bent at that point as it exited the hole (it was radially tested).

Vaughne wrote:Although I understand that you think your bolts are fine, I firmly believe that you owe it to the climbing community to provide a list of climbs or at least crags that you have bolted.

Ok, there are a lot of valid issues in this thread, but to all the people that are going "tell us where you bolted!" it is pretty obvious that you are not and probably will not be climbing at the NRG anytime soon.

Dan is using his real name on this site, and the NRG guidebook gives first ascentionist info for every climb. It should be easy for any person in this thread to stay away from Dan's routes if they want to.

If you want to climb only routes installed with a torque wrench you should not even bother coming to CO. And anyone who starts flinging that liability bullshit around needs a serious bitch slap.

camhead +1
el tigre +1

Jim Titt wrote:An M10 stainless (316) wedge bolt usually holds 42-44kN but we rate them at 38kN as this is the lowest we have seen. That´s a pretty typical value from all the major companies in Europe. There are also ones available which fail around the 10kN level, even ones made in Germany and that is the reason we test before we put them on the market, not everything that shines is gold! With a standard 17mm spanner which is 190/200mm long or just under 8") I can pull 62Nm/46ftlb before the pain in my hand becomes too much and there is risk of injury. If you can pull over 800ft/lbs with a 24" wrench then you should be in the Olympics since that means you applied over 400lbs on the end! Or of course it means you believe you achieved the rating on one of the most notoriously innacurate pieces of equipment ever made and used an air dump directly attatched to the tool instead of miles of flexible hose, my smaller air wrench is rated to 200Nm and I can stop it by hand if I use two hose extensions on it. We tighten the head bolts on Volvo generators to 800Nm (590ft/lbs) and use a two metre torque wrench for the last bit! The tabs engage in the rock so the clip stays still and doesn´t rotate while the cone pulls through and expands it, when the tabs are overloaded they either gouge through the rock if it is soft or the tabs fail in hard rock. This is a bolt I cut out of the rock after it had failed, the tabs have distorted and gouged into the cone making the groove you can see which prevents the clip from properly sliding any further up the cone and makes the pull-out resistance lower. This one actually pulled a long way out and failed at the base of the cone when it bent at that point as it exited the hole (it was radially tested).

I should be in the Olympics? Nice, so are you saying you would sponsor me? Indeed, that doesent sound quite right, the wrench must have been longer. All I really remember is that I would use a 3/4" impact driver, then I would walk across the shop and pick up a massive 3/4" spanner that seemed to weigh over 35 lbs, and I was able to further tighten the bolt with the spanner. I have ran into the same thing with 1/2" impact drivers supposedly rated for something like 450 ft/lbs. I use them to put the lug nuts on my tires on, but then I would hit the nuts with a 1/2" torque wrench and I could get some of them to turn with 130 ft/ lbs or so. I have also been able to hold back a 3/8" impact driver by hand, so I am a bit weary about the specifications on some impact drivers.

camhead wrote: Ok, there are a lot of valid issues in this thread, but to all the people that are going "tell us where you bolted!" it is pretty obvious that you are not and probably will not be climbing at the NRG anytime soon. Dan is using his real name on this site, and the NRG guidebook gives first ascentionist info for every climb. It should be easy for any person in this thread to stay away from Dan's routes if they want to.

You can't possibly know where I climb or where I may climb in the future. I travel all over and will likely visit the NRG someday. Thanks for providing the info on how to find the routes though.

Vaughne- if you've climbed at Table, CCC, Shelf Rd., Penetente, Devils Head, BoCan., the Monastery; Rifel, Lime Creek, you have quite likely clipped bolts NOT set with a torque wrench. In fact, there is a good chance you haven't clipped one yet.

Vaughne wrote: You can't possibly know where I climb or where I may climb in the future. I travel all over and will likely visit the NRG someday. Thanks for providing the info on how to find the routes though.

The other really neat thing is that, in the 21st century, there is this whole digital world in which many routes are cataloged in databases! If you are really computer-savvy, you might even figure out how to use this little-known tool called a "search feature." Now, here's the hard part, you need to figure out some way to enter a name, say, "Brayack" into a specific area called "routes," and maybe, just maybe, you will be able to access this super secret knowledge that Dan doesn't want out on the internet! Don't tell him I told you!

mountainproject.com/scripts…

El Tigre wrote:Vaughne- if you've climbed at Table, CCC, Shelf Rd., Penetente, Devils Head, BoCan., the Monastery; Rifel, Lime Creek, you have quite likely clipped bolts NOT set with a torque wrench. In fact, there is a good chance you haven't clipped one yet.

What I have gathered from this thread is that a torque wrench is NOT necessary nor commonly used. However, it seems to be the consensus that tightening as hard as you can until you hear popping sounds is bad and unsafe. I have never drilled or placed bolts and likely never will, but I clip them all the time.

camhead wrote: The other really neat thing is that, in the 21st century, there is this whole digital world in which many routes are cataloged in databases! If you are really computer-savvy, you might even figure out how to use this little-known tool called a "search feature." Now, here's the hard part, you need to figure out some way to enter a name, say, "Brayack" into a specific area called "routes," and maybe, just maybe, you will be able to access this super secret knowledge that Dan doesn't want out on the internet! Don't tell him I told you! mountainproject.com/scripts…

Your sarcastic tone adds nothing to the discussion and is frankly somewhat insulting. I have already conducted your suggested search (but thanks for the link). That search returns 11 sport routes, which does not equal the 400+ claimed bolts. All I asked for was a listing of crags that were bolted. You have indicated that this information is available in the NRG guidebook, so thank you. Before you explained that, I had no way to know that these routes are all in WV. If you look through this thread, you'll see that I am not the only one interested in this information.
As a side note, does anyone know if there is a multi-quote feature?

I used one once, figured out roughly what 20lbs of torque is and then never used once since. I've placed 200-250 bolts. Many router setters around here have never used one...

Agreed. I used one for all my initial tests in small rocks and for the first couple of routes I set. After you get an appropriate "feel" you can leave it at home.

Agreed, as above, BUT the person in question said something as he tightens as much as he can, and gets them to pop a bit. Sounds like he's shearing them off to me.

El Tigre wrote:Vaughne- if you've climbed at Table, CCC, Shelf Rd., Penetente, Devils Head, BoCan., the Monastery; Rifel, Lime Creek, you have quite likely clipped bolts NOT set with a torque wrench. In fact, there is a good chance you haven't clipped one yet.

Well, I think the problem is not as much that the developer did not use a torque wrench, but rather he tightened them as tight as he could. I don't believe a developer needs to use a torque wrench to place bolts safely, but the developer does need to know what he is doing, and cranking on the bolt as much as possible is a pretty clear indication that he does not.

I'm surprised that no one has commented on the fact that it was a red-tagged closed project. I've since adopted a policy of removing hangers and leaving a fixed rope hanging from projects which aren't ready to be climbed on. I knew the bolt was bad, it was an "aid" bolt in a near horizontal roof.

The bolts didn't even go all the way to the top. Anyways. I hashed it out with the injured guy and feel really bad that he got hurt, but my bolts are fine. (at least those which are no longer closed projects.) If you'd like, check out the New River Gorge guidebook and you can avoid my routes if you'd like. I don't mind <3.

Dan Brayack wrote:I'm surprised that no one has commented on the fact that it was a red-tagged closed project. I've since adopted a policy of removing hangers and leaving a fixed rope hanging from projects which aren't ready to be climbed on. I knew the bolt was bad, it was an "aid" bolt in a near horizontal roof. The bolts didn't even go all the way to the top. Anyways. I hashed it out with the injured guy and feel really bad that he got hurt, but my bolts are fine. (at least those which are no longer closed projects.) If you'd like, check out the New River Gorge guidebook and you can avoid my routes if you'd like. I don't mind <3.

done many of your routes and am still alive, thanks for the work.