Running and Climbing

Anyone out there a runner? I'm bored and can't get out and climb, or run, so I'm roaming around MP and waiting for Apple stock to rally so I can make some money in the crazy market.

After going back and forth and back again about what to do for the months of August and September, I've finally nailed down plans to head to CA for Lover's, the Hulk, Whitney, Russell, Tuolomne, Needles, etc. Really excited, but also wondering what kind of shape I'm in for the alpine world.

I was stuck inside for a large part of 2011 but I trained hard and climbed well when I got out. But most of my climbing has been done below 6000 feet with the exception being a month in Indian Creek last year and a week at City of Rocks last month. And admittedly, climbing in England, Spain and the eastern US doesn't really get you into the kind of shape that you need to be in for alpine climbing and approaches.

So recently I've been running, probably not as much as I should be but as much as I can. It's been hard to stay motivated, not knowing if I was going to get the chance to climb out west versus another road trip in the east (which also would have rocked). But over the last few weeks I've been getting at it, all the time thinking of the CA granite.

I'm doing 7 min miles up to about 5k and 8 min miles up to 10k. A 9 min mile is a warm-up, cool-down or just a relaxing run, and slower than that is uncomfortable. I'm unable to get out for more than an hour at a time so I'm doing two runs a day, one 2 or 3 miler and one longer run, both with warm-ups and a 30 min body weight workout after (pushups, dips, rock-rings, etc). All running on flat asphalt at 60-80*F. This is a bit slow for me, but I guess I can no longer compare what I was able to do "back then" to what I am capable of now with minimal training.

Haven't climbed a lick since mid-July and don't have access to rock or plastic until next week, when I fly to CA. But the running and working out have me feeling pretty fit, a bit more so than when I was in the City. I was able to climb my normal grade there, but noticed that I was not in great shape on longer, more sustained pitches.

So what to expect? What do the runners think about how it helps your climbing/approaches? It's not like I run to the rock and it's not like I am running around here w/ a pack.

What about others that run to train for higher elev?

Sorry, I'm rambling... and bored. Apple is moving...

I'm not sure I'm a "runner", but I run 2-3 miles usually twice a week. This year I've been mixing in more stair master and elliptical (mostly because I find it easier and I'm lazy) and I think those two exercises have really helped me on the Valley approaches. I'm not doing much above 9k and haven't done any extra long approaches, but I think mixing in the stair master and elliptical have given me some leg muscle conditioning and the approaches this year haven't left me destroyed pre-climb. My .02.

I usually run 50-60 miles a week, been doing it for the past 5-6 years. Pans out to about an hour and a half 5 to 6 days a week. It's my third love.

Other than keeping weight down for climbing, I usually find that it only serves as cross-training. Even with the amount I run, I still find I can barely hike (maybe because hiking is just boring to me, i don't really know) and my climbing has only improved because of climbing training.

It's really going to depend on where and how you do your running. Cross country or on a treadmill/track? I try to mix, but if it's solely treadmill/track then I doubt it would help with anything alpine. Cross Country running would just depend on where you live. If you run in flat lands, then it's still the same outcome. Hilly places may or may not be a different story.

It's also going to depend on the kind of approach. Long with little incline? Yeah, running might help. Medium length up 4th class terrain? Oh hell no.

EDIT: Are you expecting apple stocks to fall or get better? I doubt they'll fall much if at all. Steve Jobs left behind a pretty good crew.

Nice Evan... I used to do that kind of mileage. I've become lazy.

I never run on the treadmill and don't think I could do the stair-master or elliptical or anything inside w/o going insane. Unfortunately most of the time I spend running is on flat land, but I think getting my heart rate up for longer and longer periods of time will help me cope w/ the altitude and focusing on getting my mile splits down is the only real way I know how to increase heart rate w/out hills.

I don't expect to be able to climb harder, but I do think (hope) that it helps me from huffing and puffing at the top of a long pitch. Same w/ approaches... I don't expect to feel any better really, just hoping to not feel like shit.

We'll see...

Evan Sanders wrote:Are you expecting apple stocks to fall or get better? I doubt they'll fall much if at all. Steve Jobs left behind a pretty good crew.

The way the markets are moving over the last week, prices don't have anything to do with the company. It's all about fear and optimism. A lot of people are ready for the end of capitalism as we know it and they sell when the markets get volatile. Then on the other side of the spectrum you have the day traders who wait for the selling to stop (and the prices to stop falling) and they buy low and watch their accounts double, triple, etc.

I am in neither camp as I don't think we are quite ready for a paradigm shift in terms of the economy, but I am also not a day trader. Doesn't mean that I can't make a few hundred bucks here and there when I have time. Apple will always be a good stock, but it swings 5 to 10% per day when people get scared.

I actually feel like if I put in even modest amount of miles, 7-10 a week, I cant train as effectivly as I can if I keep it down to a couple light jogs. I find myself feeling sort of beat down. I normally train power/power endurance as I boulder more than anything else. If you primarly are into routes, I can see running probably helping on the straight endurance side of things, at least it help me when I was more into routes.

I recently bought a road bike and find that a much more effective way to train cardio in addition to it providing a link i didnt realize was missing in the form of a solid leg workout. I'm consistently sending 2 grades harder now as compared to before I started riding. I find I can put in 2-3 rides a week at a moderate distance (15-20 miles twice during the week, up to 50 at the weekend; usually at a 18-21 mph pace) and still train hard in the gym and pull outside at teh weekend.

I realize everyyone is different, but this is what's been working for me.

You should limit your jogging to a couple of times a week and mix in one to two days of sprint workouts. I think you'll see better results in both cardio fitness and strength from doing sprints.

Two thoughts:

1. Don't be surprised when you still have to acclimatise.

2. I think the best thing you can do to make your training more effective is to incorporate a lot of hills. if there are no hills, you can usually incorporate some stairs (eg stadiums). In my experience, running on the level doesn't get you very ready for hiking uphill with a pack, although it is, of course, way better than nothing.

Run barefoot, in minimalist shoes, or VFFs so you can strengthen your feet.

wankel7 wrote:Run barefoot, in minimalist shoes, or VFFs so you can strengthen your feet.

I agree with this. Also, it is better for your knees. I actually hate running myself, but if I do it , it is Xcountry and barefoot. You use more of your body Xcountry, it's more fun, and more applicable to climbing, IMO. I can never understand those people I see plodding along the side of the hot pavement with cars racing by.

wankel7 wrote:Run barefoot, in minimalist shoes, or VFFs so you can strengthen your feet.

-1

If you're doing cross country, your feet may get strengthened but if you're doing long distances you'll mess up your body unless you've been doing it for years. The only reason those Kenyans can do long distances barefoot is because they've been running without shoes since they were born. If you want to strengthen your feet just walk around barefoot

Short distances (1-3 miles) would probably be ok without shoes

wankel7 wrote:Run barefoot, in minimalist shoes, or VFFs so you can strengthen your feet.

Conversely, I've run into people who screw their feet up running too much barefoot too soon. I've read that book too [Born to Run], and, while interestingly argued there, I'd say the jury is still way out on the barefoot theory.

Acclimatisation is a real concern. More time spent adjusting to altitude is good. Eating heartily and hydration are also prime concerns. I'd also lay off alcohol beforehand as it tends to depress the breathing centers right when you need to be breathing at a faster rate.

The only running I do regularly is trail running, mostly with a lot of uphill. I think cement is an unneccessary stressor and doesn't really reflect the stresses you will place on your body. And it's boring.

trailrun.reynolds wrote: Conversely, I've run into people who screw their feet up running too much barefoot too soon.

From experience, I put myself out of climbing and running for six weeks after a stress fracture. Luckily I could get on my road and mt bike... until I blew my arm up while mt biking. I cannot fully blame it on the VFFs but no doubt did not help. And it was not because I had no idea of what I was doing either. Last year I was running around 40 miles a week and 20 miles of trails on the weekend, and most of the weekday runs were with the VFFs @ 8-12 miles per day. I still think VFFs help with foot strength. But it is better to approach from the cautious side with VFFs.

As others have added, sprints or hill climbs will give you more dynamic strength (granted sprints do not help in the endurance department). Similarly for biking sprints and hill climbs. Like you running on some sort of device in one place causes my brain to explode.

I think running helps but only to the extent that it keeps the weight off when you aren't climbing, if you are the type to gain weight easily. I used to run about 30 miles a week, but have been doing more mountain biking as it's more fun and burns at least as many calories (at least around here where there is a lot of climbing).

When I do run, it's in minimalist shoes. I'm not entirely sure whether it helps with injuries, etc for me or not. I know my calves and quads get a better workout in those things (most noticeable the last few days as my bike is broken and I'm waiting for parts, so I've been running much more than in the past couple months).

Thanks to everyone for all of the input.

I have been doing a variation of what we used to call "pace work." When I ran XC competitively, my goal time for the 5K was 17.58, which is about a 5.45 mile, which is about a 1.26 400m. So I'd run a 1.26 400 meter, then jog 100 meters, then another 1.26 400 again and so on until I had done a 5k or 12 400's at that pace.

Currently I'm doing the same sort of training once a week, and doing both shorter and longer distances (100m to 1200m), but doing them at 100% instead of trying to set a pace for a longer race. So this has me doing something like a 58 second 400, 2.5 min 800, etc, but I try to do them until exhaustion with half the amount of rest. So 58 second 400 followed by 29 seconds of walking.

I choose this because work has taken me to the beach where it is super flat. It is the only way to increase my heart rate to maximum levels, which is the best way to increase your maximum performance from a cardio standpoint.

You guys are right that stairs and hills would be better training for the approaches, but I just don't have that option right now. What I am doing is carting 3 little kids around on a bicycle cart thing, so basically pedaling a big heavy hotdog stand w/200 pounds of spoiled Russian children (don't ask). It's definitely a workout, so maybe it will help w/ the approaching (I wish).

In the end I think that I am doing the best that I can and it will just have to be good enough. I'm not really worried too much, but just like hearing others opinions. One good thing is that I'll have a day or two in SLC cragging and then a few days at Lover's Leap and anywhere else in Tahoe before heading up the Hulk. After that it's down to Russell and Whitney. It took me less than a week to feel normal at the City last month, and I hadn't really been running at all before I got there. I know the Sierra are higher, but hopefully I'll get acclimatized fast!

I tried those toe shoes, they sure are great for many things. Maybe I just have barney rubble feet, but really, my feet (and I bet yours too) are (and have always been) plenty strong.
About this frequency of running thing. Can we get a debate like sport running versus trad running going, I just bought a twelver so I am READY.

Steve

Ryan Williams wrote: You guys are right that stairs and hills would be better training for the approaches, but I just don't have that option right now. What I am doing is carting 3 little kids around on a bicycle cart thing, so basically pedaling a big heavy hotdog stand w/200 pounds of spoiled Russian children (don't ask). It's definitely a workout, so maybe it will help w/ the approaching (I wish).

Well, the biking may actually adversely affect your climbing if you do enough of it by bulking up your legs. Don't get me wrong, I love road biking and will continue to do it no matter what it does to my climbing "physique," but if you can, tempo runs and hill workouts will probably give you a better overall outcome. Just my two cents.

Anything that builds additional red blood cells and improves your hemoglobin's capacity to load up with O2 molecules and transport them to your extremities will help. But personally I've found that cardio at low elevations hasn't helped me as much as I'd hoped. (Still better than no cardio at any elevation!)

You say you hate indoor cardio training, but the step mill machine is the closest thing I've found to hiking uphill for approaches; it is an almost identical workout.

trailrun.reynolds wrote: From experience, I put myself out of climbing and running for six weeks after a stress fracture. Luckily I could get on my road and mt bike... until I blew my arm up while mt biking. I cannot fully blame it on the VFFs but no doubt did not help. And it was not because I had no idea of what I was doing either. Last year I was running around 40 miles a week and 20 miles of trails on the weekend, and most of the weekday runs were with the VFFs @ 8-12 miles per day. I still think VFFs help with foot strength. But it is better to approach from the cautious side with VFFs. As others have added, sprints or hill climbs will give you more dynamic strength (granted sprints do not help in the endurance department). Similarly for biking sprints and hill climbs. Like you running on some sort of device in one place causes my brain to explode.

60 mile weeks in VFFs....wild! How long did it take to get the stress fracture?

Eric Kuenstner wrote: Well, the biking may actually adversely affect your climbing if you do enough of it by bulking up your legs. Don't get me wrong, I love road biking and will continue to do it no matter what it does to my climbing "physique," but if you can, tempo runs and hill workouts will probably give you a better overall outcome. Just my two cents.

Yea, I was kind of joking about it helping. I'm not really doing enough work on the bike (penny cab) to do anything... only a few miles a day. Even if I was, I can't see my legs bulking up at all. The only way I've ever been able to gain weight is to do serious lifting at the gym.

I'm almost in exactly the same situation. I've been training for a trip to the sierras that where since the climbing won't be all that difficult, the long hikes in at altitude will mostly be the crux. Being in Minnesota and mostly chasing a 14month old, the only thing I could come up with was to load up a pack with 50lbs of weight and hike the steepest hill at the local state park for 1500 vertical feet. We'll see if two months of doing this works in 1.5 weeks.