Farming ice outside a climbing gym

Ok, so i had [what i think is] a great idea.. someday we'll be moving our gym out of the cramped, short little building that we share with a gymnastics company. If our investor likes us enough, he'll help us build our own building.

Our winters are long and frigid. So i thought, why not farm some ice on the north side of the building?

So here are my questions:

-is it possible to make good, safe ice on a heated building? (we're usually around 5 degrees fahreheit from december to february)

-How strong does the wall need to be to support the ice?

-Is there anything special we should do to the wall to assure good adhesion?

-How do we make sure the ice doesn't seep into cracks and damage the wall?

-and finally, is this as good of an idea as it sounds in my head?

I have no idea how to answer your question, but it sounds like a great idea :)

You should build a separate lattice that could be connected to the structural elements of your wall. The wall itself is just a skin and is not designed to carry a shear load like that. Think steel posts and expanded metal, you want something to disperse the water as it dribbles down. The water would best be pumped from a sump inside the space and kept separate from the domestic supply. You could then add stuff to the water to make it freeze harder or more elastic. Also, if you heat the water it will freeze up with much more interesting features than just straight water.
Needless to say, start with a cost/benefit analysis.

This is a good idea.

A great idea would be hiring an engineer.

I'd love farmed ice at my gym (and I'd be willing to pay extra).

Get in touch with WoodchuckATC about ice farming, he just did it in Illinois, he can help with how to direct water flow etc, but for structural integrity, see and engineer as suggested above.

Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote:This is a good idea. A great idea would be hiring an engineer. I'd love farmed ice at my gym (and I'd be willing to pay extra).

+1 for hiring an engineer to handle the structural requirements

You might also consider talking to your insurance group, as having a large hunk of ice outside of a building may be a liability you dont want.

As for this being a good idea, I think there is really only two ways to look at it:

• If I were an ice climber, and lived in an area that had natural ice all winter, why bother going somewhere with "fake" ice?
• If I were an ice climber, and lived in a COLD place like you do, but there was no natural ice to climb, then farmed ice would be a god send.

clevernamehere wrote: *If I were an ice climber, and lived in an area that had natural ice all winter, why bother going somewhere with "fake" ice?

After work, short days, learning to, drive time, etc.

Come off the roof with some 4x4`s and hang some chain from it.Let the water run down the chain and a column will form, a self sustained column of ice that is away from your main building but is supporting itself from the ground up.

Interesting ideas above. We got lucky on our ice forming from simple hose sprayers and seepage leaks running down the side of a cold concrete silo. Agree that an engineer would be wise for something on your building, AND check to see if your insurance would cover any damage to structures. Within 5 days we had a foot thick of ice on a 15 ft wide section. 4by4's upright against the lower section gave us a low angle start and something solid for the drippage to build upon. Otherwise it was all attached to the silo sides. Good Luck!

As ice shavings come off of the rock they will begin to form a layer of ice at the bottom of your wall. Also, your ice will have a tendency to flow outwards from the base of your columns (for about the same reason that ice cubes tend to flow together in your freezer over extended periods of time). With this in mind and the possible danger of falling ice/gear, you will probably want the base area to be recessed into the ground with limited access. This recessed area can be accessible from a small flight of stairs, and the entire are can be protected with a small fence. You will want to get an engineer or contract engineering firm to design this structure for you, if for no other reason than to limit your liability.

I have known quite a few people in Alaska who have made ice towers. They are very popular in Europe. If your lot is large enough you can have a structure with a platform on top with toprope anchors. The beauty of this is to keep it away from the structure and to control spring runoff. I would certainly hire an engineer for liability and logistical reasons but make sure they have some familiarity with climbing structures so it doesn't end up costing you a fortune being overbuilt. Farmed ice is so much fun! Ice is Ice, unlike plastic.

A couple years ago Rocktown gym in OKC did this, they might have some helpful info for you.

Rocktown Website

random Thoughts:

1. What happens to all of the water when it melts? Do you have drainage taken care of.

2. If it's freestanding and self supporting vertically, what provides lateral support during a wind event. This will be a huge problem for an engineer. (The self supporting part will be a problem too.)

3. If it's bonded to the wall the lateral can be taken by the wall but almost any engineer is also going to include the vertical weight of the ice into the wall footing design and most would include it into the wall design too.

4. You'd responsible for the integrity of the ice. Say if a Ronco Food Dehydrator sized block falls off and lands on somebody?

5. You'd need a plan to monitor melt/ refreeze cycles to insure integrity.

I'd build that portion of wall as either Cast-in-place concrete or precast then adhere a lot of rigid insulation to the outside of the wall (after waterproofing)so that the wall doesn't heat up the back of the ice.

Howdy,

I farmed Ice for about 3 years in Michigan. The tallest our wall got was around 80' high.

1. We found that the ice was mostly self supporting.
2. Making it and devising new sprayer systems is 1/2 the fun.
3. When we used domestic water it had to be really cold outside (10 or below) to make ice. Domestic water comes out of the tap at around 42 degrees. We had a pond behind our shop, so we pulles water from the pond at 37 degrees and found that we could make ice with outside temps as high as 25 degrees.
4. You better have an engineer sign off on building Ice on the side of your building. I doubt you'd find one who would.
5. Send me an email if you want to chat about it.

Prod.

prod. wrote:4. You better have an engineer sign off on building Ice on the side of your building. I doubt you'd find one who would.

I think I remember the engineering firm that did the design and inspected the 2004 Ice palace. It's one of two firms that I'm thinking of, one I'd recommend the other I wouldn't.
clicky?

Anyway. As cool as what prod is showing you above. His system is the difference between a camping tent and (what you are trying to do) a commercial structure.

The building official will want assurances that this structure will not collapse, and I'd bet that they will not rely on the ice being strong enough to support itself. The engineers for the 2004 ice palace had to inspect the ice daily (or twice daily) during the duration of the structure to allow it to be built.

No Here's what I'd do.

I drive a sheet pile wall a distance away from the building equal to the height of the building. (25' high building, drive the sheets 25' away) That way you can claim the building will not be impacted by falling ice.

That's a sheet pile wall:

The top of the wall may need to be braced, in that case you can run a wale at the top of the sheets and struts over to the roof bearing elevation of the building. But I'd just get big enough sheets. However this bracing idea would work with other wall types too, CIP, CMU, etc.

Then you can go ahead and tack weld all sorts of crazy shit to the face of the sheets that ice can form on. Call it art.

As a side note, the "Camping tent" above was designed and constructed by an engineer, an architect, and a 20+ year veterine of the high end residential and comercial construction industry.

prod. wrote:As a side note, the "Camping tent" above was designed and constructed by an engineer, an architect, and a 20+ year veterine of the high end residential and comercial construction industry.

Call your buddy the engineer, and ask him if he sign for that being placed in a public spot and used for commercial purposes. I don't care how you built it. It's not going to fly.

Better yet, ask him what value he use for allowable compression bending stress of the ice. I'd rather know that. While your at it ask him what he used for Fa (allowable compression stress) too.

So are you always a condescending ass? Not that I give a shit what you think but the Architect and Engineer are currently building a multi use theme park in Northern Mi, to include Mt biking trials course, Zip line park, free standing outdoor rock climbing structure, and yes an Ice climbing structure.

Imnotclever can do his own research. Or I can send you a contract to put my engineer buddy on retainer, as you obviously have book smarts but limited real world experience you might want to hire a professional.

Justin, if you want any input feel free to send me a line. I’d be glad to share what we learned if you decide to get this off the ground.

• **EDIT*** Interestingly you are not far off on the sheet pile. They are driving H piles. You're still a punk kid with no chops in my book though.

Prod.

HAHAHA!!!

See when he had to sign it, guess what, he goes and ignores the strength of the ice and builds a structure he can put his stamp on, not just 3 trees and a power pole.

HAHAHA!!!

Actually it's in a field with no trees around it, so they are making a tree with H pile. As the Ice gets big and self supportive, very little of it is in contact with the structure. It melts away from it from the inside. Wind is not an issue.

As a side note, explain to me how the Fang does not blow over prior to forming to the rim? Sheet pile? Guy wires? Self supportive?

You're most likely a good kid, but you gotta lighten up.

Prod.