Camalot defect?

Peter Schroer wrote:I took a lead fall about 5 or 6 feet above my well placed #2 a couple days ago.

5 or 6 feet above your last piece? Meaning you fell 10 to 12 feet plus slack and stretch?

How much rope between you and your belayer?

What was your fall factor? This will more accurately predict the force on your cam.

A short fall on a short piece of rope is more severe than a long fall on a lot of rope, generally speaking.

Hi Peter. I don't want to "be a jerk" here, but I have to point out a few issues I have with some comments that you have made.

The title to your post is implicitly inflammatory. Even when used as part of a question, the use of the word "defect" when referring to climbing gear is problematic to me when you have no real evidence of a defect. Then, you go on to make a bunch of assumptions about the cause for the "defect," stating that there might be poor quality metal in a batch of products. You have no evidence to support that, and I think that posting that kind of alarmist rhetoric is irresponsible and helps no one.

The big issue I have is your timeline for action. If you believe any of the stuff you wrote above, then you should be on the phone with BD RIGHT NOW! If you think that there is even a slight chance that your cam is evidence of a larger issue with quality control, waiting until June to contact BD is not only irresponsible, but displays a huge lack of concern for the safety of rest of us who use BD Camalots.

I hate internet arguments and really don't want to be dick to you. However, if you really think that your cam is defective, then any delay in reporting it to BD is unacceptable.

Edit to add...
IMHO you have not given enough info about the placement and the fall for anyone to make an educated guess about the cause for the tweaked lobes. In my experience, sometimes pro can get fucked in even the best placements. All sorts of factors can add up to destroy gear. The more experienced you get, the better you will be able to look at a placement and determine how well your gear will fare in a fall. I am sorry that your cam deformed. Having gear wear out sucks. However, it fulfilled its purpose and held your fall. That is the most important thing.

Now, please send the cam to BD. Who knows, they might send you a free replacement cam.

When you fell was the cam placed in a horizontal crack? was the cam placed in such a way to protect against the direction of the fall? was your fall to the side, creating a pendulum action that would have torqued the cam? and as said above, fall factor?

Starting a rant = poor form.

Go back to BD or the gear shop where you bought it.

Send it to BD, it can only help...

I had the exact same thing happen recently. 20 foot'ish fall (rosy crucifixion) about 80 feet of rope out, stellar vertical placement... shit just happens sometimes is what i told myself, now my BD #1 is hanging on the wall above my desk as a reminder of that very exciting moment. But now I'm all caught up in the conspiracy theory of chinese metal.. i'm going to check the serial number when I get home, and if it's +-50, who knows, maybe we can BOTH get new cams from BD??!!

Judging from the wear on the lobes in this picture

I'm thinking that the lobes might have not been loaded equally, or the cam might have rotated as it was loaded during the fall and the tweeked lobe caught on a crystal. The wear on the tweeked lobe is much higher on the lobe compared to the anodized lobes and I don't see any wear on the non-tweeked inside lobe. Personally, I feel that the damage occurred due to a less than ideal placement. A picture of the placement would help with the assessment.

to me, it still looks like one or both of the axles are bent. also, it looks like the top gold lobe in the photos has experienced slight buckling, which would be consistent with the unit not being in line with the load, and/or the lobe not being perpendicular to the side of the crack at its contact point.

in either case, probably be a good idea to retire it. better yet, send it to aric datesman (look him up on this site), and donate it for scientific pruposes.

The photos are interesting - and thanks for posting.

It looks like (from the bottom) lobes 1,2, and 4 have sustained pressure impacts on the edge no doubt caused by heavy contact with the rock. Lobe 3 seems to have sustained no such damage.

Obviously this is conjecture based upon insufficient data, but, going by the photos alone, it looks like lobe 2 distorted because it took the most initial load? Perhaps lobe 3 was barely in contact and there did not sustain any of the initial load?

I would guess that the brunt of the distortion in lobe 2 is an ovaling of the hole that the axle passes through as opposed to a bending of either the shaft or the lobe.

With all of my guesses on placement, I think the Camelot performed per spec.

If it was mine I'd check the "play" in each of the lobes, being particularly interested in lobe 2. Also I'd probably retire the cam.

need pics from the side ... could be a bent axle ...

I have never encountered a company with superior customer service to BD. They have been unbelievably fantastic both times I've contacted them (a backpack warranty problem and a lost crampon). Instead of waiting until June, you might try contacting them by phone or email right now. If they treat you half as well as they've treated me, they'll find a way to make things right.

edit:
Holy crap, the cam looks like it's been placed exactly once. You sure you're not a New Yorker at the Gunks? :-)

In that case, definitely drop them a line with the pictures; even if the damage were 100% your fault due to a strange placement (I'm not saying that it is!), they'd almost certainly hook you up out of sympathy!

1. It saved your life.
2. BD has gone so above and beyond in warranty replacements and repair work that they could have charged for but didn't--they have my business for life. Send it in and see what they say.
3. Glad you didn't get hurt in the fall.

A buddy of mine whipped pretty hard on my #3 while we were at the creek. No you're not going to be out 70 bucks every time you fall, but sometimes things just happen.

Jeez, that #3 is fugged. How do you do that in wingate splitters?

Alec Sundet wrote:A buddy of mine whipped pretty hard on my #3 while we were at the creek. No you're not going to be out 70 bucks every time you fall, but sometimes things just happen.

Wow, very cool. Good to hear that they can take that abuse and still hold a fall.

Will S wrote:Jeez, that #3 is fugged. How do you do that in wingate splitters?

I can't remember the name of the route, but it was not one of the creek's iconic splitters. It was a brand new #3 that was placed in a crack that went from fingers to cupped hands in about 2 feet. He took a nasty whipper and as the cam ripped down the converging crack the lobes bent all out of shape.

Alec Sundet wrote: I can't remember the name of the route, but it was not one of the creek's iconic splitters. It was a brand new #3 that was placed in a crack that went from fingers to cupped hands in about 2 feet. He took a nasty whipper and as the cam ripped down the converging crack the lobes bent all out of shape.

Curious, did the cam actually slide down the crack for two-feet?

Peter Schroer wrote:MADE IN THE USA would be nice to see on these things.

I am curious as to how this would make a difference. Black Diamond would still be using the same certification processes and same quality control. Could you please explain more?

-sp wrote: Curious, did the cam actually slide down the crack for two-feet?

Yes, and it only stopped because the crack discontinued. Had the cam not had a place to jam I wonder what would have happened? Perhaps the lobes would have continued to bend until the unit failed and pulled out? Also, fingers is wrong, it was bigger than that. Revising what I said earlier it went from loosely cupped hands at the top to probably 2 inches where the crack ended. I think he's using it as coffee table decor these days ha ha.

This type of bent lobe is consistent with a cam placed horizontally. The potential scenario is the following: The cam is loaded while being horizontal and the lobes engage, then the cam is rotated by the falling force. As a consquence, the engaged lobes will get bent like in the picture. Is the material is softer than nominal, then it will be even easier.

Buy Metolius!

That is all, carry on :D