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SOUTHERN ARIZONA CLIMBING ETIQUETTE - XXX - January-------Subtracting bolts (Chop Chop)

Original Post
Rocking Rick · · Silver City · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 5

SOUTHERN ARIZONA CLIMBING ETIQUETTE

Play nice or get the axe.

Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55
"Barn burnt down, now I can see the moon."

I am going to stop the SACE series.

A friend pointed out to me a few weeks ago that I may be doing more harm than good by virtue of the series. I was giving what he told me some serious thought---when the MP landlord intervened---so the issue got decided for me.

It was not the administrators that pulled the plug. The landlord of the site was troubled over the threatening e-mail he was getting. I would have been troubled, too. I probably would have done the same thing. It is his web site.

While censorship is never good, who wants to be threatened?

Moreover, I like MP. I am grateful for it. I do not wish to be the cause of these problems.

I had hoped after we got beyond the rough talk we could get on to discussing issues and making some strides forward.

This recent topic was just too controversial. "Chopping" was next in order of the topics, but I should have waited until the Rockfellow situation blew over.

I learned a great deal. I appreciate many of your wise and funny posts. I am grateful for whatever restraint you were able to muster.

Climbers are just like people only more so---no better, no worse. I had naively thought differently. We cannot all “just git along.”

Our own internecine war will always prevail over access. Access will need to take care of itself.

I have new respect for the crew at the Access Fund. I hope you all will consider joining.

Merry Christmas

Scott Mc

P.S. Thanks T-Dog for your post. It reminded me to sign off.
Paul Davidson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 607

Scott:

Sorry to hear you and the landlords were caught in someone's crosshairs. Odd that rather than banning the threatening posters (maybe the issue is lurkers threatening the site) the landlord decided to chop the Chop thread.

Chopping is clearly a very emotional subject but it's also a very important one; especially in light of the growth in the climbing population. The more climbers, the more differing views and the greater the chance of local ethics being ignored.

It's unfortunate, but one of the lessons we're supposed to learn as kids, that one can spoil it for all, seems to never sink in for some.

I have enjoyed your attempt to discuss serious issues in meaningful ways and just want to say thank you for your efforts for the climbing community (and not just here on MP but way back to CCliff days.)

Perhaps I'll see you in the Stronghold this spring...

BenClimbing · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 245

Weak. I was following this flame-fest and learning a great deal about the very different ways that obviously thoughtful and intelligent people could view the same subject within the context of climbing. It was reinforcing my belief that the "keep our business out of public view" attitude that many climbers hold as sacrosanct (with many good reasons to back up that belief, i admit) ultimately leads to misunderstandings, backstabbing, and resentment.
The fact that MP could be bullied into pulling the post seems weak. What did they threaten? To call you an unpleasant explative? To tell on us and get the area closed, maybe? Just makes me wonder why you bother having a website at all if you are so afraid of where simple discussions will lead.

Andy Laakmann · · Bend, OR · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,990

Afraid? Nope.

The thread had descended into the typical name calling. And, as usual when this happens, people start emailing me complaining about the thread, threatening to sabotage their content, yadayadayada.

I have zero patience for that kind of bullshit. If people want to call each other names, do it on someone else's watch and someone else's bill - not mine.

There is one rule on MP - don't be a jerk. That thread had looooong since past that threshold. And when it ends up on my radar because of complaints - it's gone. Don't like the rules? There are plenty of other websites to spray hate.

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
Andy Laakmann wrote:I have zero patience for that kind of bullshit. If people want to call each other names, do it on someone else's watch and someone else's bill - not mine.
I'm behind you 100% on that, Andy. I didn't read the thread in question, but as far as I'm concerned, anyone who posts something offensive can expect to see the content deleted without explanation.

Mountain Project is where you go for civil and rational discussion of climbing topics. There's a time and a place for flaming other climbers -- it's called rockclimbing.com.

JL
Mike · · Phoenix · Joined May 2006 · Points: 2,615
Andy Laakmann wrote: ...There is one rule on MP - don't be a jerk. That thread had looooong since past that threshold...
Agreed.

saxfiend wrote: ...Mountain Project is where you go for civil and rational discussion of climbing topics. There's a time and a place for flaming other climbers -- it's called rockclimbing.com. JL
Exactly. Guideline #1 is one of the great things about this site. Flaming, hate, & trolls have other sites to utilize. Those reasons are why I don't visit rc.com and rarely go to Supertopo. The gradual "rockclimbing.com-ification" of this site bothers myself and some others I have spoken with. If rc.com is what you want, then go there. As I said in my one contribution to the thread in question, it wasn't changing anyone's mind, and just seemed to make everyone involved (and SoAz climbers in general) look bad.

I bet the folks at rc.com & supertopo (and boldering.com & the old rec.climbing) would love that thread. Maybe those who liked that thread should start up another one over there.
ClimbPHX.com · · Mesa AZ · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 1,135

+1 to the Admin

As a member of the E-Commerce Community locally in PHX
I was concerned regarding the direction that Mountain Project
was headed after the first Mt Lemmon Bolt Wars thread. I remember someone saying (rough quote) "Too bad no one climbs in AZ anymore, they're on the internet fighting while someones choppin their bolts" Again rough quote but you get the idea.
We are blessed with some unique stone in this state - from Sedona Spires and Lemmon granite to Cochise's unique chickens and the hundreds in between ... and I'm glad we are getting back to the POSITIVES that come with our community. Not the bitter old tired regret of an aging soul...

Larry · · SoAZ · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 50
Shiloh wrote:...the bitter old tired regret of an aging soul...
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Albert Newman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

Scott McNamara,

I want to thank you for starting the series regarding access issues and concerns for the future of rockclimbing. If this website is any indication, the issues we face in Arizona are happening all over the country. I am sure there are at least a handful of people who visit this site that are interested in preserving climbing and the thought of adventure for later generations.

It took a bold man to step up to the plate and address some of the challenges facing every person in this country who climbs outdoors. It is a lot easier to hide our heads in the sand to let the landlord, land manager decide what is best for us. It will be curious to see what the powers that be decide for our futures and the pursuit of climbing freedoms. I am trying to be optimistic.

Scott thank you again taking the initiative to address serious topics which need to be discussed as a community.

Albert Newman

Paul Davidson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 607

Well said Albert.

And Scott, I'd like to suggest you reconsider your decision to stop your monthly thread suggestion.

The more contentious issues are obviously going to be difficult.
The Internet is such that even a discussion over the color of the sky can quickly turn into a flame war. The removal of a physical social context tends to let us run away with our first thoughts (knee jerk) and treat others as pixels on a screen rather than as fellow humans. The ease with which we can type and press send creates a community rife with ADHD types in which the Frontal Lobes don't do their job of governing our outbursts. Of course there are simple remedies for this; thick skin and deep breaths come to mind.

The question of airing dirty laundry in public is an interesting one. I do think there can be potential for problematic policy decisions (damage to access, fixed anchor bans, etc...) when specific details of actions are publicly aired, but it would seem that those risks exist apriori to the thread and that the potential for problems caused by public debate is minimal relative to the potential benefits of an interchange of ideas (disseminating local ethics, possibly changing people's minds, preventing chipping, grid bolting, etc...

My own experience is that sometimes folks have no idea of what local ethics are, especially in a college town where you have new climbers drifting in and out each year. And while one might scream and cuss in a discussion group over a perceived slight (or an idiotic argument ;-) ), sometimes, later in the quiet of the night, the rational side of the mind takes over and the independent nature of climbers can be led to believe that having and adhering to local ethics is in fact a good thing. Indeed, sometimes in that situation one can even realize that the idiot was not the other person but rather one's own self. The nature of the internet is such that it is too easy for us to mis-interpret what someone has written.

So the question I'm left with is: Does the potential good of the discussion out weigh the potential bad?

I think history shows that overall discussion yields far more positive than negative results.

BTW, you might find this page interesting:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_(Internet)
Even though somewhat off topic, I found it thought provoking.

jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,626

Let he who climbs chalkless cast the first stone.

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

I can't cast the first stone, Jbak, you've glued it on a new route!

P.S. You don't look a day over 60 to me.

jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,626
Jimbo wrote:I can't cast the first stone, Jbak, you've glued it on a new route! P.S. You don't look a day over 60 to me.
Not your best work Jim... but I appreciate the effort.
Paul Davidson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 607

I'm winding up but can't find a target...

Besides, we've all been spanked by Uncle Andy and told to play nice or he'll take away our toys.

Hey, look over there.... thwack...

Albert Newman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

Sigh...
Maybe it is hopeless to try and discuss issues which pertain to every person who enjoys outdoor climbing.

Here's a wonderful, sad 15 minute clip which sure seems applicable to our squabbles on this website. (Just for fun, try and put our various online personalities on a character in the clip).

WARNING: Sensitive individuals may find this very offensive.

youtube.com/watch?v=CKh1mOe…

Crazyclimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0
Geir Hundal wrote:I would like to apologize for my role in the decline of that thread. I originally intended on defending a few of my friends, but then allowed myself to become angry as the thread declined. Sadly, I am human and don't always think things through before I post. I will make my best efforts to present my concerns less abrasively in the future. Thanks Andy for getting rid of it. (Edit) Also thanks Scott M for your efforts with the series. Regards, Geir
I saw the picture you posted. Not only did you not think before you posted you did not think before you acted. As a devout Christian I find you actions deplorable and shameful. There is nothing worse then someone who hides behind their faith as a cover for the actions they do. I am motivated to write in because the jihad is a muslim ideal and any Christian that aligns himself with these beliefs is insulting the Lord. As a Christian you should hold yourself to higher ideals then this. By representing yourself as a holy warrior executing violent acts in the name of God you show that you have forgotten what your entire faith is based on. You are equaling your power with God. God is the only person who can judge another. To the man who uses a holy symbol as his avatar for this site, you should not only know better but act better. God demands you worship none other then him and by dressing up and acting this way, you insult him. The jihad follow a God that is much different then ours. You should have been a better man then this. Treating others with love. Philippians 2:3-4 says, "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."

I would not expect this from a fellow Christian. If the above quote is an attempt to apologize for your actions, I am ashamed. For you have lost much more then just a few abrasive threads, you have lost your way into something much darker. There are many tasteless jokes posted on this site but none that disgrace my faith and other Christians as much as your actions. You should spend a little more time in church then at the crag and review what your really are made of…as a son of God.
jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,626

Sounds kind of....mmmmmm.....judgmental..... to me.

BenClimbing · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 245

The fact that he sent that message on the public forum instead of in private forces me to wonder about his own "selfish ambition and vain coceit".

Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

I didn't realize christ had an opinion on chopping bolts. Shouldn't be surprised, I guess. Come to think of it, a run out is what turns a jug into a thank god hold.

Marcy - · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 1,190

I would like to apologize for my role in the decline of Geir.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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