Avalanche Food For Thought!

Bob Packwood wrote:Anybody know anything more about that fatality on Mt. Trelease last week?

This photo is pretty crazy to see how wind-loaded the crown was compared to other parts. Crown went from less then 1 ft to over 4 ft.

also note the skin track looker's left of the path...it's unsure if the party used that skintrack or not. Hopefully that will be covered in the final report.

Bob Packwood wrote: Anybody know anything more about that fatality on Mt. Trelease last week?

Yes, I have quite a bit of info on it beyond the preliminary report, but if all you could take away from the video was the comments you made,

"just another meathead skiing hero lines in mid-December", which is just fucking asking for it whether it's mid-winter or mid-fucking Hannukah. You wanna talk about where the risk is? Any fool can look at the line brobrah was skiing in the video and say, "yeah that's stupid". I don't need to watch his video .or read his blog or take Avalanche II to make the right decision there"

and if you don't think this video is food for thought and it was not worth sharing then you would probably not be able to interpret the data in a meaningful analysis. So this is not the place to share apparently.

The video offers many valuable lessons beyond his decisions making process and is an amazing perspective for teaching purposes. I'd like to think I know a bit about snow, But maybe not as much as you Mr Packwood, or others in this thread and I will be the first to admit I am still learning and learn more every season by diversifying the snow packs that I work in. I do spend a fair bit of time in snow, And found some fascinating perspectives in the video. This video has taught me many useful things, Some things I already know and can just confirm with a graphic video of evidence, but other things I can use to teach beyond the fact that it was poor data collection, interpretation and decision making, those are just the obvious lessons, but there are some more amazing ones in this video about

-the skiing
-the approach
-the techniques
-the plan (or the lack of)
-the ski cut (or lack of) could you cut it, would you cut it, where would you cut it, why would you consider a cut?
-the characteristics of the slab,
-Using the storm and weather data of events that lead to this recipe starting with seasonal events up to the more recent leading to the presence of the slab
-the movement of the slab
-starting zones,
-why did it break where it did
-why did he trigger it where he was and what was the mechanism for that,
-Where did this skier stop? Would you call that a trigger point or the starting zone or both potentially and why?
-What about the shape of the terrain, the use of it and the terrain features present.
-What about the escape route and skiers decision there, so many more items, etc,

Just some of the basic, but not all of questions that went through my mind when I watched it.

the list goes on and I will use this video when teaching steep skiing tactics and Avalanche education. I have practically outlined a lesson plan that would support this case study for you, That video will be used for years to come, but not to make the conclusions that you did Mr. Packwood. I know I will use it, it's pretty damn good I should of known better than to share that on the MP community.

As I said before, I could spend a whole day teaching in so many categories from this video. I posted it so some of the more savvy folks could interpret those lessons, and ask those questions as well.

And Mr. Packwood, I don't see Mt. Trelease or this incident any more relevant then the other. They are both important pieces of Data that should be on folks radar. Both unfortunate, one obviously more so then the other,

Since you need food for thought the Trelease incident took place in terrain where the CAIC forecast issued a moderate warning, probably the most tricky forecast to interpret. And apparently experienced party was involved.

PS: More food for thought, how many folks are using airbags these days? Another life was saved by one yesterday on Jones Pass.

JPVallone wrote: PS: More food for thought, how many folks are using airbags these days? Another life was saved by one yesterday on Jones Pass.

How did it work? By protecting the and head or by keeping the head above the snow? I am very curious about these.

I read the Trelease thread over on TGR and they kept saying that those guys did everything right. I don't consider that kind of terrain open to me for skiing this time of year. The trees they skied weren't thick enough to protect the snow pack so I am not sure that incident is an example of how to do things right. I would really like to hear a good analysis and opinions. If MP is not a good place I wish I knew where to go, TGR is a pretty mixed bag.

Over the last 15 years in the Colorado BC based on observation it seems that most risky lines skied don't release and luck seems to save most people. I remember how expensive rando equipment used to be and how sloppy it was. Now the stuff is so good and the price so low... expect more of these videos on youtube.

Rick Blair wrote: I would really like to hear a good analysis and opinions. If MP is not a good place I wish I knew where to go, TGR is a pretty mixed bag.

+1.

@ JPVallone: I'm sure there are many other people on MP who feel the same as well. There are always going to be people who comment about the opinion or analysis, perhaps you can just post some of your analysis and not worry too much about the other comments? There are probably many people who would be interested who typically just read the forums and don't post much (like me).

Bob Packwood wrote:Vallone, it's ridiculous to say that the video you posted can answer all those questions. .

Never said it answered those questions, but it prompted me to ask and answer them and take a look at them as I do when I observe or record any incident. I can answer quite a few of these questions from the video though. I ask the same questions when I look at Crown profiles or any other accident or near miss. Asking those questions is much better then the assessment and conclusions you took away from the video. Your not gonna learn much from your obvious conclusions.

So the next time someone raps off the end of the rope or is messed in a climbing accident, we should just say what an idiot and not see if there is anything to learn from it, Is that the way you go through life? I have learned so much through other peoples mistakes and more from my own, But I usually try to summarize it better then What an F-ing idiot, which seems to be your summary.

One of my biggest mistakes that I have made was arguing in the Mountain Spray forum with someone like you and actually caring what you think, Well lessons learned, unfortunately as stated in the top of this thread, I knew there would be folks like you on here.

Bob Packwood wrote: It's also ridiculous to say that the CAIC final report on the Trelease incident, or even the information already available, is even on the same level as the juvenile YouTube snow porn you linked. .

Actually I didn't say that either Mr Packwood, your really bad at interpreting things, hence the data from Trelease would probably rattle the hell out of that one sided brain of yours. I said they are both important pieces of data that should be on folks radar. You however seem to think there is nothing relevant or important in the video. And seem to think the Trelease incident is the real food for thought. So start the Trelease thread and don't watch this video and don't chime in, There is nothing of value in it.

Bob Packwood wrote: will make sure to create a PowerPoint presentation in your honor and show it to my dog.

At least your Dog will be smarter then you and he will start asking avi questions instead of saying F-ing Idiots every time someone messes up. I bet your dog's more fun to ski with then you.

I answered my own question, from CAIC
The rider was hit by a "freightliner" of snow from above. He was instantly buried. He triggered his airbag and "floated to the surface as I heard the bag inflate." He was able to swim to the edge of the avalanche, and came to a stop after about 100 feet, partly buried under 6 to 18 inches of snow. "Below me was a cliff that would have destroyed me, period."

Sounds like those airbags work as advertised. With that kind of positive success will they increase or decrease avy burials?

Rick Blair wrote: With that kind of positive success will they increase or decrease avy burials?

They have been saving lives for years, and the statistics are amazing, not an excuse for poor decisions or aggressive decisions, but the statistics are alarming. They are very popular in Europe and I would say about 90% of the guides I see in La Grave are using them.

There was a case last year in Europe where a resort employee working on control was killed. There was a lawsuit and it was awarded, The judge ruled that the employee should of been issued a bag and it could of made the difference.

I wonder if there will be a day when it will be considered gross negligence in the states if a guide or outdoor educator working in Avalanche terrain doesn't provide or require bags on their clients. It sure would be gross negligence to not carry the proper Avi rescue gear, so how long will it take for lawyers and insurance providers in the states to get a hold of this technology and it's applications.

I'm using a bag in Europe, They are more common and available there, have been for years. They have gotten lighter, they can hold gear better, but are still evolving. There are more choices over there and they are getting a little better on price and refill convenience.

One Drawback was working in Alaska around the heli's . When they first started showing up years ago, mostly on European clients, we had to discharge the bag before we could load it on every bump. It's not a big deal, but you do need to remember to do it. Secondly, was finding a place where you could get replacement cartridges on the ABS. The Snowpulse which is now distributed in North America as of this year, and the BCA float have solved this by making it possible to fill at any dive shop. Unfortunately you can't fly with the canister charged and the ABS canisters need to be shipped or bought upon arrival in your destination if you can find them. The ABS is a sweet system though because you can buy a package of three packs 15 30 and 45 or something along those lines and the system is interchangeable into the pack you wish to use.

Another great topic to ponder.

I'm using a bag in Europe, They are more common and available there, have been for years

Check out a video on you tube of Xavier de la rue, maybe the best snowboarder to ever live. He survived the biggest ugliest slide I have ever seen footage of someone in with an ABS. I'm sure Packwood won't be impressed, just another brobrah video of someone's hero line, and that Xavier has no game either to back it up.

For those who are constructive in here, thanks, I'm out, I have said more then I wanted too, Just thought the video was worth seeing for those who hadn't.

JP, I'm probably a fool for jumping in here for the reasons you cited about subjecting oneself to abuse, but from an interested (and objective?) 3rd party reading this thread, which you started presumably to generate some discussion, it seems to me that you are the one jumping all over everyone who has the nerve to post, beginning with Mr. Morris, who I thought asked a very reasonable question "What makes you think this year's snowpack is that much different?". I believe he asked this question not to challenge you, but out of genuine curiosity and in deference to your expertise. I was surprised that you got so defensive immediately, and I'm sorry your previous bad experiences with posting seems to have eliminated the chance for a potentially valuable discussion and learning opportunity about avy risk in the Front Range.

Having taken intro avy training and with a moderate amount of experience in the BC, I do know that no matter how knowledgeable, experienced, and educated one is, no matter how many pits are dug, etc., the risk is still there. So I basically tend to agree with the gist of Mr. Packwood's comment that those guys were crazy for skiing such extreme lines that time of the season. What really scared me was the Mt. Trelease photo, one of my favorite places to ski. The victims were very experienced and knowledgeable, and that slope was one I might have considered, unlike the one in the video.

This is a relevant discussion, since I've skied up at Berthoud a few times this year, including Sunday (took my chances in deep powder in the trees). Anyway, thanks for posting the video; seeing that and reading the TGR post was really interesting -- maybe by the time those guys get to be my age they will realize how incredibly lucky they have been!

John Martersteck wrote:What really scared me was the Mt. Trelease photo, one of my favorite places to ski. The victims were very experienced and knowledgeable, and that slope was one I might have considered, unlike the one in the video.

Why would you have considered that slope? To me its full of red flags, just getting back in that area would be plenty of risk for me for one day. I agree with your comment that age definitely seems to play a role in these incidents.

Since there seems a fair amount of interest in recent incidents around the Dvr front range area, SnoDale will be leading a discussion this Wed at Alpine's Shack in Evergreen, 7p; Avalanche Risk Assessment and Decision Making.

Wed Eves are open to the public and Dale's snow science is always worth a visit.

Rick Blair wrote: I agree with your comment that age definitely seems to play a role in these incidents.

The age range with the most avalanche victims is 21-25, with 26-30 falling not too far from them.

CAIC Statistics

I think that one of the problems with these disscussions is that the answers to some of the questions are so complex but there is a desire for quick, simple answers to them. It is extremely difficult to say "what exactly is different about this years snow pack?" If you could be out there with the questioner, it would be easy to point out some unusual aspects of this season's pack. Just as a small example: I haven't been out in every storm this year but I've been out in a lot of them and every snowfall I've seen has had graupel in it. In 30+ years of looking at this stuff I've never seen anything like it. So what? What does it mean? Hard to say. It just supports Joe's contention that things are a little weird snow pack-wise this season. Sure, there are some conditions that every winter season (i.e. lower average temps.) have in commmon but it's hard to prove the subltle differences in a quick forum blast. It probably would be best for posts to be taken as they are made - as attempts to disseminate useful information and for posters not to take questioning as a lack of respect. That, however, is another obstacle to understanding: human nature.

Joey, thanks for the thread. The video has been a topic of discussion amongst my ski buddies the last two days.

JPVallone wrote: They have been saving lives for years, and the statistics are amazing, not an excuse for poor decisions or aggressive decisions, but the statistics are alarming. They are very popular in Europe and I would say about 90% of the guides I see in La Grave are using them.

A point of contention in our area is the high probability of trauma. I can see these being a great tool in self-rescue to help prevent burial, but I am concerned that the stats representing deaths as burials may not be disseminating which would have been trauma anyway where another medical concern was primary; then to which are due to the physiological concerns in which these tools & buddy rescue can make a difference. Right now, successful beacon buddy rescue is reporting somewhere around 45 to just under 50 percent success. And bags, reporting what about 95-96%? However maybe a little more caution in this number is warranted. They are reporting deployments, not which would have resulted in burial had they not deployed, in which actual burials could be only resultant in 5% of avy; nor does that stat show how many don't deploy which should have, approx 10%; as well as my point of trauma, which 2 were recently taken in France having these tools.

I guess to try and explain, whereas both continents report physiological contributing factors such as: hypothermia, hypoxia/thoracic restriction, & hypercapnia (the latter being the biggest problem, which is where the avalung idea comes from as snow has oxygen, the CO2 build-up is the concern); the incidents where physiological is primary I think still needs a review of mechanism to indicate whether trauma was a possible factor. This may not be possible, I don't know; it sure would be better to know how much trauma is actually involved.

My concern is Front Range Colorado is a high trauma probability and incredibly easy to access; maybe anyone can also say Jackson, San Juans, Wasatch as well; a good part of these areas don't have friendly runouts where buddy rescue, or any rescue will make a difference unless the avy victim is lucky as hell which has certainly happened a few times.

So, what I'd like to see as well as gadget discussion is thought on how to avoid trauma. Namely, how to recognize avy terrain, how to assess risk, & recognize consequence of action.

Basically how to best assess not getting caught in the first place if contemplating travel in susceptible terrain. Guides can play a very important role in this. The after-incident report on Berthoud tells me the skiers had some assessment tools but couldn't properly assess their situation when traveling in terrain.

Ok, I'm back, I guess I'm not done, but I love snow and the topic too much.

John Martersteck wrote: it seems to me that you are the one jumping all over everyone who has the nerve to post, beginning with Mr. Morris, who I thought asked a very reasonable question I believe he asked this question not to challenge you, but out of genuine curiosity and in deference to your expertise.

Agreed and fair enough, I might of been a bit defensive to the above question,, Phillip was simply asking for info, and I apologize for my tone with him. I'm not jumping on everyone though, just Packwood :-)

Mountain Project Forums in my opinion should not be a place to seek knowledge or lessons. It's dangerous to ask for advice here. It is so hard to have a professional discussion in a forum with no moderator. I am not an expert and don't claim to be, I know a little bit about a lot , but not a lot about a little I will leave it at that. I learn more about snow every season, and it seems the more I know the less I know. I guess I feel like a geek about it but it fascinates me. I keep asking questions and studying all the data I can. My thought process on the matter seems to change daily. With the growing availability of video cameras and the means to post on the interweb, we stand to learn even more.

There are some other forums with more constructive discussions on the video and the lessons learned. And I have observed the video with folks that I would call experts and we have had some valuable discussions based on what the video shows us.

I really like the video, It fascinates me in so many ways. I think I have watched it 50 times now and paused it in so many increments in so many places. I'm glad I got to see it. When we get a video like this to look at with data and history, it's an amazing tool to put it all together. I don't think Mr Packwood agrees.

My tone got a bit deeper after reading the follow ups from Mr Packwood and I stand by everything I said, Unfortunately he is missing the point, and the video is worthless kiddie ski porn to him.

mark nelson wrote: So, what I'd like to see as well as gadget discussion is thought on how to avoid trauma. Namely, how to recognize avy terrain, how to assess risk, & recognize consequence of action. Basically how to best assess not getting caught in the first place if contemplating travel in susceptible terrain.

This is what avy awareness and avi 1 puts emphasis on. It's really all folks need, it is the foundation to staying alive. Avi II and III are way beyond this scope of thinking. Snow Sense might very well be one of the best books ever written on the subject. It's a quick read and to the point. I have owned the book for around 15 years or so now and reread it at the start of every season. I believe it answers most of the questions asked and for those who have not read it, I highly recommend it.

What you will not learn in these types of courses and in the books, nor can you learn this from a ski instructor is line choice and strategies for the actual skiing part of your line. The type of turns used, and where they are placed. What are you looking at, where are your skis pointed, which turn is used where, Is there sluff and how am I managing it. Should the line be dynamic or should there be some semi static checkpoints. How do I visualize it, and what might be different alternatives when I arrive at that one part etc. I put emphasis on these concepts when teaching steep camps. There is a strategy to it, Coomb's was the best at it. It can't be learned without experience and time in the field. It's like trying to teach a ski cut, which is something I don't teach or promote. Everyone can ski, the skis make it too easy to go big and ski fast and hard like your heroes in the movies. Similar to other sports, people's skiing abilities improve faster then their judgment and mountain sense. I think it's easy to overlook the actual skiing part and how to ski it in small terrain like the zones of Berthoud. Although the zone is quite fun and what I would consider mini golf, the consequences are quite high for messing up. The zone is quite short and usually a one move wonder to move through it. I think skiers nowadays are overlooking the how to ski the terrain part of the equation in addition to making the right decision to ski it. There was bad judgment to ski the line in the first place but also a great example of how not to ski the line if you were going to ski it.

Mark you bring up some valid concerns for the studies and the unsupported data as to whether or not the bags played roles in preventing trauma or not. If secondary exposure is of concern then there is not much the bag, a lung, a beacon or your rescuers can do for the victim. But if I can increase my odds of staying on top, then I will take the tool. The fact is, I am in Avalanche terrain almost everyday because thats were good skiing is and my job puts me there. I have talked to folks that have actually pulled there bags and had fortunate outcomes thanks to the bags. They will not ski without them. One being a seasoned IFMGA heli guide with almost 20 years heli guiding experience in the Chugach. His incident took place in Haines and it is gripping to hear him tell his story. But there is no doubt the bag saved his life. I know another industry professional who has a fleet for his clients issues the bag in a addition to the standard rescue equipment. He was one of my mentors and I have much respect for this man and what he has done for American ski guides and Avalanche education.

I would love to see some more data that supports your concerns towards the bags effectiveness against trauma,

I was out on an observation tour with a CAIC observer a few days ago and he suggested that we all start wearing some huge bubble wrap suits. I suggested that we make over sized airbags and fill them with helium so we can just float away when we need to. :-)

I still think they are worth wearing as part of a kit and they do have a place. They are hear to stay and will improve. They are widely excepted over seas and I believe they will gain exceptance here soon enough.

I could not agree more Mark, the best line of defense is to avoid suspect terrain all together. Learn how to recognize avalanche terrain and the ingredients for an avalanche. It's best not to treat the bag as a safety net or the fact that we have gear we know how to use to make bad or aggressive decisions.

JPVallone wrote:What you will not learn in these types of courses and in the books, nor can you learn this from a ski instructor is line choice and strategies for the actual skiing part of your line. The type of turns used, and where they are placed. What are you looking at, where are your skis pointed, which turn is used where, Is there sluff and how am I managing it. Should the line be dynamic or should there be some semi static checkpoints. How do I visualize it, and what might be different alternatives when I arrive at that one part etc. I put emphasis on these concepts when teaching steep camps. There is a strategy to it, Coomb's was the best at it. It can't be learned without experience and time in the field. It's like trying to teach a ski cut, which is something I don't teach or promote. Everyone can ski, the skis make it too easy to go big and ski fast and hard like your heroes in the movies.

Yeah, the guy in that video makes big swishing turns with a blocking move at the end to cut speed, I'm sure that is more likely to cause a slab release but so what?

They should not have been where they were, period. That is obvious to anyone with a little knowledge, experience and common sense.

Coomb's was a professional skier making a living off of endorsements and ski films. (Not to mention a film crew buzzing around in a helicopter ) For the rest of us, no way should you be worrying about how your ski technique might trigger a slide. If you have gotten to that point you are playing Russian Roulette. You are a guide so maybe you fall more into the pro category but I hope you are not hanging your life on ski technique.

Mr. Packwood,

You started it with your less then constructive summary and bashing of the skiers at large, And the bashing of my OP. You obviously like to stir the soup and seem to get a rise out of confrontation. I started the thread because of my interests in snow and avalanches.

There is plenty of validity in the video for folks that study avalanches and pursue all the education they can. Unfortunately you can't see through your own assessments.

As for punctuation, not my forte, Never was and I know it. So thanks for pointing out the obvious as you did in the video for us as well.
I can't write very well and never was good at grammar. In fact I had straight A's and B's in college with only 1 D on my transcript in creative writing, but that's ok with me, honestly I really don't care. Can't be good at everything.

I threw out food for thought and posted some of the questions that went through my brain when asked. I didn't intend for the discussion to go into full blown analysis and try and answer every tech weenie question thrown my way. The questions I posed are the ones that crossed my mind, I have answered most from the video, but not all can be answered. Mr. Packwood, your biased approach towards anyone that might know something or think differently then you makes me sad. I may not be able to write very well, but I can back up my words with skills. So if you ever make it over to Europe, look me up and I am sure I can take you to school. Unfortunately I don't know you so I am speculating in those regards. But I am willing to bet I could show you a thing or two on skis and in snow packs. Not meant to be an ego throwing, dick swinging statement, but at this point you have lit my torch.

You have yet to contribute constructively to this thread and I bet you have a hard time excepting the fact that some people are educated in the matter.

For those of you who find this topic interesting you know where to find me.

I'm packing for the rest of the day, on my way to La Grave tomorrow till June, so for the folks that might make it over the pond this year, you know where to find me.

For the rest, take what you want from this thread and especially the video, have a wonderful safe season.

Rick Blair wrote: You are a guide so maybe you fall more into the pro category but I hope you are not hanging your life on ski technique.

I was fortunate enough to have learned almost everything I know about skiing from Coomb's. I owe my job in Europe and reputation in La Grave to the man. He did teach these strategies better then anyone I know. I don't hang my life on ski technique, but I do ski in avalanche terrain, it's part of finding good skiing. That doesn't mean I throw myself at anything. I still make most of my decisions not on avalanche danger but I would say more on stability. But I still apply a strategy to the line and how I ski the terrain even if the stability is good.

Rick Blair wrote: Coomb's was a professional skier making a living off of endorsements and ski films.

Actually Doug was a UIAGM/IFMGA licensed guide and one of the best. He unfortunately passed saving the life of one of my best friends. He mostly made his money guiding, he was booked solid. If you made it through his steep camps you could be his client, Steep Camps were his try outs.

PS. I didn't come into this thread spraying that I am a guide and I know this and that, but other folks have merely pointed that out. Being a guide doesn't mean that much personally to me. I base my thoughts on my experiences and what has been passed on to me.

No disrespect intended to anyone, I only knew him as a ski film guy and occasional ads, don't really know much about his bio.

My only point is that the risk you are willing to accept is similar to the risk some of the great free soloists in climbing accept. It is not for the masses or even for some great climbers/skiiers for that matter, its a very small group. Only in a very specialized setting is there anything beside the obvious to be learned from this incident.