.

Josh Olson wrote:desmond, watch the sharp end.

+1

Dont fall then, and if you think you might fall, dont fawkin climb it! like I said... go to gumbyland instead. I try not to fall under the douchbag elitist category, but there is something to be said by the fact that climbing is INHERENTLY dangerous, and that is exactly why a lot of us do it, cause it makes you feel alive, unhindered, and free when you hone your mind and body to the rock with the sub-cognizant knowledge of getting fucked up if you blow it.

CalmAdrenaline wrote: +1 Dont fall then, and if you think you might fall, dont fawkin climb it! like I said... go to gumbyland instead. I try not to fall under the douchbag elitist category, but there is something to be said by the fact that climbing is INHERENTLY dangerous, and that is exactly why a lot of us do it, cause it makes you feel alive, unhindered, and free when you hone your mind and body to the rock with the sub-cognizant knowledge of getting fucked up if you blow it.

Well, why use any bolts if thats your stance? "if you think you might fall don't climb it"......how do you expect to get any better if you don't push yourself to the point of falling?

Hey, let's all go back to middle school and bitch like a bunch of pansies. Get off your high horse and forget about it.

TP in SLC wrote:Nice name "Desmond". Too bad LOST is over huh? Now your just filling your time posting on MP.com...funny I never would haver thought you were a climber. You couldn't even climb your way out of that dirt hole on the last season. From the sounds of your posts you better just stay in the gym where you can clip as many bolts as you want.

Actually, it was a well.

Desmond Hume wrote: Well, why use any bolts if thats your stance? "if you think you might fall don't climb it"......how do you expect to get any better if you don't push yourself to the point of falling?

There are plenty of other easily protectable or otherwise bolted routes to push your limits on and improve as a climber, all climbs are not created equal, some push your endurance limits, some your physical, and then there are the ones that are dangerous that push your mental limits, if you cant keep your headspace and mental game in check and you feel you need to place a bolt because its to "scary" dont climb it, plain and simple.

just chop it, patch it and be done with it...

Problem solved, granted, but its the principle of it. Our world is filling with wanksters.

Tparis wrote: I just assumed that it was a girl, because if it had been a guy he would have sacked up and climbed it as it was.

I'm trying really hard not to take that comment personally. WTH?

CalmAdrenaline wrote:Problem solved, granted, but its the principle of it. Our world is filling with wanksters.

I really couldn't care less bolt or no bolt... but who said it is YOUR world or even MY world... it is everyone's world... just because you claimed and FA... do you have a deed for the land? I mean seriously, you remind me of children who think the entire world revolves solely around them! Why don't you go get an M16 and guard your route with it then we can all be ranked right up there with the government!

• whines* "...but it is MINE!!!"

JD Kendall wrote: I really couldn't care less bolt or no bolt... but who said it is YOUR world or even MY world... it is everyone's world... just because you claimed and FA... do you have a deed for the land? I mean seriously, you remind me of children who think the entire world revolves solely around them! Why don't you go get an M16 and guard your route with it then we can all be ranked right up there with the government! *whines* "...but it is MINE!!!"

WTH? How long have you been looking for a chance to rant about selfish climbers? Clearly, it's been a long time and you couldn't wait any longer. But, it would've been much better to wait a bit longer and respond to a post that actually demonstrated some selfishness. Who's more selfish? The person who asks that a climb he created not be altered or someone who decided to alter that climb so s/he could do it?

JD Kendall wrote: I really couldn't care less bolt or no bolt... but who said it is YOUR world or even MY world... it is everyone's world... just because you claimed and FA... do you have a deed for the land? I mean seriously, you remind me of children who think the entire world revolves solely around them! Why don't you go get an M16 and guard your route with it then we can all be ranked right up there with the government! *whines* "...but it is MINE!!!"

jd- the general ethic around here is not to add fixed hardware to an established route unless you clear it with the FA.

from what i've heard, dave is not a whiner. my understanding is that he has put up thousands of routes in the stronghold in very bold style.

JD Kendall wrote: I really couldn't care less bolt or no bolt... but who said it is YOUR world or even MY world... it is everyone's world... just because you claimed and FA... do you have a deed for the land? I mean seriously, you remind me of children who think the entire world revolves solely around them! Why don't you go get an M16 and guard your route with it then we can all be ranked right up there with the government! *whines* "...but it is MINE!!!"

Actually I said OUR.
Just because you claimed an FA doesnt mean you own the route, your right, but you would hope that climbers would respect the traditions of our sport. The sport that people quit jobs, school, and the traditional life to pursue, a sport with such rich ethical traditions, until now... hence.. wanksters.. more everyday.

If you or anyone else is defending placing bolts on long established rock climbs you are a disappointing anomaly. How would you feel drilling bolts into classic Robbins routes? Becky routes? Johnny Dawes? These guys would vomit at the thought that this is an acceptable practice.
How can you not see that? disgusting.

Crag Dweller wrote:The person who asks that a climb he created not be altered or someone who decided to alter that climb so s/he could do it?

obviously the person who asks not to alter the climb is the selfish one. He can still climb it in his style choosing not to clip the extra bolt. But without the extra hardware others may not get to enjoy an excellent climb. The one that adds the bolt is only altering it so he and others can climb it and it does not take away from the FA's ability to climb. When you tell someone they have to do it your way or go somewhere else that is selfish. But when you invite others to enjoy what you've done and make it possible for them that is unselfish. I'm only answering the question with some common sense.

Legs Magillicutty wrote:The dude who did the true FA as a high ball probably thinks you "VANDOLIZED" the route when you added your 2 measly bolts.

That actually happened to a friend of mine's 'problem'.

Everyone is happy to jump on the thread starters side. I'm all for bolting only when 'necessary', but there are a number of factors that could favor adding the bolt:

1. Is the area a 'sport climbing' area. (It doesn't seem like it is, but still something to think about). It would be silly to put up a mixed route somewhere like Rifle or AF.

2. Did the first ascentionist place his bolts in stupid spots (right after the crux). This often happens when placing on lead, but it doesn't make it a good thing.

3. Does the bolt added make more sense to have than any of the other bolts. If so, then maybe you should remove one of your bolts.

Yes, the first ascent party has a right to encourage a specific style to their route, but that doesn't mean that the route won't change. You don't own the rock even if you did get to the top first.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Perhaps the party that added the bolt got in way over their head and made a poor decision. Maybe, maybe not...

Not clipping the bolt is not the issue here!

ITS THE ETHICS OF PLACING A BOLT ON A LONG ESTABLISHED CLIMB.

It is disgusting what soft little wieners people are these days.

I feel sick to my stomach.

Crag Dweller wrote: ... a climb he created ...

I usually agree with a lot of what Crag Dweller has to say, but I've always had a problem with the "climb he created" line of thought. As I see it he didn't CREATE anything. He saw a line and put protection on it, the climb was already there and in MY opinion, adding bolts or anything else short of gluing holds or chipping rock is not going to change the CLIMB, just the aesthetics or how you protect it. But I'm pretty sure I'm talking to a brick wall here.

Tparis wrote: I just assumed that it was a girl, because if it had been a guy he would have sacked up and climbed it as it was.

OUCH!

Jon Ruland wrote: as everyone knows, all women climbers are inferior to all men climbers.

Now I KNOW you're joking!

Tparis wrote: I just assumed that it was a girl, because if it had been a guy he would have sacked up and climbed it as it was.

not a fan of the ladies eh?

TopRope Princess wrote: Now I KNOW you're joking!

hahaha i deleted that post because i was worried someone might miss the sarcasm, but you caught me. doh!