"Upgrading" aid climbs to clean aid

If a climb is rated, 5.8 A2+, and is subsequently climbed at 5.11 C2, there seems to be a feeling that this climb now “goes clean” and therefore should no longer be climbed with a hammer and pitons. My problem with this is that with one ascent, maybe the 1000th ascent in 20 years, a climb that previously was attainable by a 5.9 climber with decent aid skills, is no longer “allowed”. If we continue with this logic, a dedicated 5.14 climber could turn most of the climbs in the Fisher Towers into “clean aid” climbs (i.e. 5.9 A4 = 5.14 C3), creating a huge supply of used hammers and pitons for sale, with no demand, and little or no climbing activity in the Fisher Towers. Anyone care to explain why this is so?

Brad Schildt wrote:If a climb is rated, 5.8 A2+, and is subsequently climbed at 5.11 C2, there seems to be a feeling that this climb now “goes clean” and therefore should no longer be climbed with a hammer and pitons. My problem with this is that with one ascent, maybe the 1000th ascent in 20 years, a climb that previously was attainable by a 5.9 climber with decent aid skills, is no longer “allowed”. If we continue with this logic, a dedicated 5.14 climber could turn most of the climbs in the Fisher Towers into “clean aid” climbs (i.e. 5.9 A4 = 5.14 C3), creating a huge supply of used hammers and pitons for sale, with no demand, and little or no climbing activity in the Fisher Towers. Anyone care to explain why this is so?

Brad,
Is this question about changing the actual grade of the route or having it be non kosher to take a hammer and nail the route?

IMO i think that claiming a route is going clean is in hopes of perserving it longer then it would if it was to continue to be hammered. Eventually placements will blow out and maybe have none at all. Or maybe just new placements. i am sure every route is different in that manner. I dont see an issue with a huge supply of hammers and pins for sale :) there will always be hard lines to nail. After a given generation those will probably go clean with modern gear as well. If people were still hammering routes in zion that go at C3 those routes would have little life left in them. I guess my opinion would be its a form of initiating LNT practice as much as possible. Maybe I am reading yoru post wrong though. It could be about the grades which given my experiance I do not have enough to offer an opinion.

I think it might be a bigger deal in granite than on sandstone. Everything that has gone free in the Fishers is pretty easy to clean aid - beak seams in mud just aren't conducive to free climbing, and when the scars get big enough for free climbing they are big enough for moderate clean aid trickery too. I can't think of any desert routes off the top of my head where old aid pitches go free but not easily clean.

SAL and Andrew, and anyone else who can shed some light, I think I need to re-phrase the issue: If an aid climb is 5.8 A* and goes clean at 5.11 C*, 5.8 climbers have lost a potential route. In other words, every aid route will go clean at some level, i.e. 5.16c/d, eventually leading to no aid routes to be climbed with hammers and pitons. I have no problem with a 5.10 A2 route upgrading to 5.10 C3, but if the upgrade makes it 5.12 C3, all of us 5.10 climbers have lost a potential route. Why does the climbing community consider this practice to be acceptable?

I think it depends on the route, and in some cases your scenario already exists and aid climbing is still fine. Zodiac comes to mind as a route that has kinda sorta been freed and definitely done clean, but people still definitely nail on that route all the time and there isn't any kind of outcry about it.

In the desert, i think its a nonissue. Nailing routes in the desert are pretty unlikely to go free until they can go clean at a reasonable standard. All the big Fisher Towers free routes are not too bad to climb clean - Phantom Sprint, Finger of Fate, and the Sundevil Chimney all go in the 5.9 C3 or so range. Mandatory hard free moves that don't follow cleanly protectable cracks in the desert were either climbed boldly like that on the first ascent, or are likely to be bolt ladders. Try as I might, I cannot think of a single route in the desert that is no longer accessible to mere mortals because it was freed.

The only route I can think of that has totally transformed into a free route is Astroman, and i don't have a problem with that. The rest of the high end free climbing on El Cap has really done nothing to impact what everyone else does.

I don't see that there is any real problem here. The times that this would happen are so rare that they can be taken on a case by case basis. Informal community consensus has worked ok on Zodiac and Astroman,

Well, there are some bumblies out there like me that can climb A3, but find leading 5.10 out of the question(unless its a handcrack at Indian Creek i guess). 5.9 seems reasonable for any wall climber to be able to do though, but there are probably even weaker bumblies than me out there who disagree.

Andrew Gram wrote:Well, there are some bumblies out there like me that can climb A3, but find leading 5.10 out of the question

That would be me too!

i might be missing the issue and am usually not the smartest chap, but what about the argument that when an aid route goes free, it should indeed have the rating changed to the free rating. Seems like most would agree that this trend should be embraced to be as LNT as we can, and minimze damage to the finite rock...however, that said, aid climbers are still able to find beta and aid at the lower free/higher aid rating.

Seems like most aid climbers are probably more savy than the free climbing gymnasts, and will need to search out the original rating/beta in order to climb the route.

what do you think?

good topic!

John wrote "it's not unheard of for a strong free climber to throw in a bolt or bomber pin at the crux of an aid route he's trying to free."

While it might not be unheard of for a strong free climber to do that, it is still retro-bolting and should be avoided IMO. (I think adding a pin to an aid route is more acceptable than a bolt.)

Also, I never feel like a route is not an option because of a mandatory free climbing rating that's too hard for me. For routes like that I simply work to put together the right team for that ascent. So I let a friend who climbs harder than me take that crux lead. (THANKS Ben!) That's no big deal. Especially since I was going to aid it anyway. I just try to find some other way to help the team. In my case, in addition to being a competent and motivated ropemate, I take lots of pictures of my partners so that in 40 years they can relive the "glory days" with their grandkids.

Steve wrote "what about the argument that when an aid route goes free, it should indeed have the rating changed to the free rating"

I think the standard is that once it goes free, it should have a clean rating.

Cheers,
Brad

Heh Brad, I was thinking of you when I wrote about my ability as a 5.2 A3 climber. Amazing we haven't run into each other flailing away on the first pitch of some tower.

Indeed it is Andrew. We should make that happen this year.

Have you climbed Cottontail yet?

Nope, but i'd like to. There is also the matter of the towers on Mee Canyon we could float to on my raft. And I know another float trip accessible 600' virgin tower...

Andrew: ". . .600' virgin tower. . ."
As a last resort, I just want you to know that I am water-worthy and have considerable experience in choppy water (mostly chlorinated, but nontheless!). Just putting it out there in case you find yourself in desperate need of a pard. BTW, does this tower have anything to do with the Green? If so, it may be on my radar as well.
If I never hear from you - may the Gawds be kind. . . it sounds like a gem.

Brad (OP), sorry to divert from your post.
Once I'm in my ladders I find it difficult/uncomfortable to get out. I'm usually okay leading 5.11, but for some reason get sketched "stepping out" onto 5.8. Going from "A" to "C" isn't a problem if I can get a piece to hold. Ethics are high on my list, although safety is too. If someone has clean-aided a line (unless the last name is Beyers, or Bartlett, etc) I would do my best to do the same, and most likely would return to it if I was unable. There are MANY routes that I simply cannot do. . . yet. But just because some wizard can free-climb an A or C route certainly doesn't mean that I'll drop my ladders - but if they climbed it clean, then I'll do the same, or hope to return to it.

This is the tower:

Not saying where it is. Anybody have a week or so in the next three weeks?

Nice. . . and haven't a clue of the location.
April is my busiest month at work, so I don't have a chance.
Keep us posted with your status (success?).
I may shoot you a line for some future float climbs I have in mind which may spark your interest.

Andrew,

Sorry to burst your bubble but we climbed that last year.... It's located along the... just kidding. I've never seen that one. :)

Ben and I are working on a trip to Mee. We have a boater lined up but he doesn't climb and doesn't want to spend two days in Mee canyon. Maybe we should hook up. I think I also have an access point for the Green River Towers.

PM me if you're interested.

Cameron,
I hope I didn't imply that anyone should forget the aiders for routes that have gone free. I have aided some of the most beautiful free climbs in the desert. Hell, I aid on almost every route I climb at some point. I was just saying that once a route goes free, the aid rating for that route usually gets converted to C if it had been A.

Brad