how high to shoot

Im getting into aid climbing this year and im wondering how hard i should shoot for, for the first few tries?t i am pretty good/confident at placing gear and think i might be able to do some maybe say a3or c3.i do realize that one is clean and one is hammer.

Heres some things id like to start with....
West face-leaning tower
gold wall-ribbon falls
south face-wash column
ten days after-wash column
reason beyond insanity-ribbon falls a3+
triple direct-elcap
the shield
the nose.........
.......

ill have lots of time and places to stay and have most of the gear already, im willing to go with a partner or solo(once i practice a bit more). I am open to brutal honesty,and all opinions

The west face of the leaning tower is a great route to learn to aid on because the consequences of falling are minimal--provided you've got a set of ascenders with you on the sharp end. The only downfall is that it's not a route you wanna bail from; you're kinda committed once you get a pitch or two up the thing.

--Marc

Me personally I would only choose maybe two off your list to start with. Despite my knowledge of gear and working systems my first wall attempts were failures just due to no time on the wall. Nothing can prepare you for the BS you will encounter on a wall. Start smaller. Leading tower or WA column would be good. Triple direct would be a cluster for a first wall IMHO. It is long, and wanders alot. I haved used zion as my training ground as the walls are shorter and less commiting and the sandstone aid really gets you good at placing gear and being gripped. Once you finally get into some solid granite youll be on vacation. Have fun and good luck.
A couple suggestions for first walls in zion.
Lowe/weiss, space shot, touchstone or prodigal son.
Cheers

the first three on the list are what im shooting for to start with.
i figure after doing these i should hopefully be ready for longer and then maybe harder routes such as some of the lower on the list

I guess The real question im trying to ask how hard is lets say a3 or c3, and do you think that would be good-to-learn-on grades???

i feel pretty comfortableon what little short clean aid ive done, and i hear about hammerless a3(just an example) where you would place a pin without a hammer , and the would be no nailing.

please put me in line if im mistaken, im just trying to get a feel of how things work with ratings and such.

I have never nailed.
I will tell you that I would bring a big O'l bag of diapers if you plan on starting on C3 :)
Its pretty grippy gear. Cam hooks over marginal rp's and offsets with bomber placments every so often. I would not recommend it personally but if you got the Ballz O steal then charge it. An advantage to doing a nice c1/c2 route or two to get started is you learn the other logistics of wall climbing. If only it was as easy as pulling through a C3+ lead. I'd say you will get put in your place the first wall you attempt and then you will know where your list stands. I got spewed off my first C2 pitch and first aid lead and then decided to start with a few c1 cam jugging walls to get it down.
Have fun. Its a great sport.

First, I agree that you should skip the nailing on your first wall; it's just unnecessary. I also agree that one should do a couple C2 pitches before jumping on a C3. Even with a little bit of aid experience, I find C3 to be pretty scary. If you've got the extra room in your pig for the diapers that SAL mentioned, you could start on a C3 though. :)

IMHO, half of aid climbing is getting your systems dialed to a point where you can move efficiently, regardless of the terrain you're covering. Since I don't aid climb all that much, even a C2 pitch can take me several hours to lead if it's lengthy enough (50-60 m long). It's much easier to get dialed on a C1 or C2 pitch; I think the jump from C2 to C3 is significant, IMHO.

Hope that helps.

--Marc

Jon---

I would say to start off with a couple little big walls. You should do the Prow. Its a bit tricky but not too bad. You will know if you are ready for A3 after doing some C2+. It is way less committing and easier to bail off if needed. I had to bail off the first 2 of 3 walls I first tried so for me it was better to start off more mellow. Plus, if you have not hauled that much you might be moving wicked slow. Get your sh## dialed first---bailing off the captain sucks.

Aid climbing grades: (the 'A' means pitons and/or bolts, while the 'C' stands for 'clean aid' meaning removable, non-destructive gear.
A0: (aka 'French Free' climbing) using an occasional tug on gear while climbing as per usual.
A1/C1: aiding up a route on textbook gear placements. Every one would hold a truck.
A2/C2: Mostly good placements, with a few that take time to set. Some wouldn't get an invitation to be part of a belay anchor.
A3/C3: hooks and other body-weight-only gear get involved. up to 50 foot falls possible
A4/C4: very precarious protection. 60-100 foot falls possible
A5/C5: entire pitch of body-weight-only gear. falls can be >200 feet

I'd recommend starting with C1 and working on getting your systems dialed and removing any wasted movement/actions. Aid climbing is about inches, learning to place less pieces and top stepping can go a long way in speeding things up. Watch the dvd Clean Walls.

Once you have your systems together them move up on grades. Each step up is a big difference and there is a huge difference between C1 and C3. I personally find true C3 or C3 + to be about my limit. I couldn't imagine climbing harder.

The success rate in wall climbing is less than 50 percent. I've even heard lower numbers such as 30 percent. Take plenty of food and water and take your time and hang in there. Often on a wall the mind screws everything up and makes things seem worse than they actually are. Its tough physical work but very satisfying and adds a completely different dimension to climbing. Once you done a few walls there is no looking back.

Marc Horan wrote:The west face of the leaning tower is a great route to learn to aid on because the consequences of falling are minimal--provided you've got a set of ascenders with you on the sharp end. The only downfall is that it's not a route you wanna bail from; you're kinda committed once you get a pitch or two up the thing. --Marc

Marc,

The bailing issue is not as bad as one would think. I bailed off this in July due to heat from Ahwanee ledge without much hassle.

1. Send one dude from the P2 anchors down with a dozen draws or so. Dude1 raps on one line and keeps the end of the other line clipped into his harness.

2. Dude1 bounces a bit, to keep access to the bolts. Ever 4-6 bolts dude clips in a draw and clips it into his rap strand.

3. At the bottom dude1 clips the end of the second line into the bottom anchors.

4. Dude2 raps the free hanging strand with the bags until he is slightly below the bottom anchor. Dude1 pulls him in. If the bags are light then dude2 can pull himself in to allow dude1 to get going.

5. Dude1 jugs the line to clean the pitches. At the top dude1 re-rigs the ropes and cleans the anchor. Dude1 raps. Lines are pulled.

6. Meanwhile dude2 ferry's the bags to the live tree 50' to the climbers right.

7. Bags are lowered using both ropes and a middle knot is passed.

8. Dudes run across the catwalk with their tails between their legs.

I'm told the P6 to Guano ledge is not hard, but I have not done it. Basically one dude without bags has to penji over, fixing the lines for the dude with the bags.

C3 is pretty scary. I know I wouldn't have wanted to climb that grade for my first aid climb.

Good Luck.

There is an old saying: "It's all A1 until you fall". While this is not completely true it does point out that aid ratings are not really about difficulty but more about seriousness.

So as for your question, a similar question would be "Should a 5.11 R be my first trad lead?", and obviously the answer depends on who you are. If you climb 5.13 then I would say sure, just don't fall. If you were a 5.9 climber I would have a different response.

The funny thing about aid is that you can make a few bad gear choices and turn a C1 pitch into C3. Also if you have not dialed your top stepping a C2 pitch can be almost impossible.

While it is admirable that you want to push yourself and get on a hard aid climb, I would suggest you get some walls under your belt first. As others have said, the difficulty of an individual pitch is not really indicative of the difficulty of the wall. Organization and hauling are the true cruxes of big walling, and are responsible for more people bailing than difficuly aiding.

Here would be a recomended primer for harder walls:

Climb the S. Face of Washington column in a day(mostly a 5.10 freeclimb with some aiding and tricky following, also will familarize you with the N.Dome gully descent).
Climb the Prow on Wash. Column in 2-3 days.
Climb the Nose or Salathe in 3-5 days.

Then look to get on a harder aid route like the Trip or Zodiac. Have Fun!

I think its a really good idea to get solid on aid and hauling before you ever go up a wall. There is almost nothing more irritating for other teams than a gumbie wall epic 3 pitches up that ends in a bail(I know this both from having to wait, and from being a really embarrassed gumbie when my cluster screwed up other people's plans). If you do just go for it definitely let people pass, though it isn't always easy to do so. I don't see much difference between a week long gumbie siege on a grade V trade route and a party fixing rope and camps all the way up Rainier - both are bad style that can clog a crowded resource.

You can learn a lot on 2-3 pitch routes - practice hauling, setting up portaledges and other bivy mechanics, efficient jugging, and aid climbing itself. Definitely practice leading and cleaning traverses and roofs - its not that hard, but figuring out stuff like this for the first time can be horrifying when you are a mile off the deck.

Short desert towers are a nice place to practice aid climbing because the climbing is interesting but not horribly committing as long s you stick to fairly well traveled routes(though do not practice hauling and that sort of thing because the rock can't really take it). Disappearing Angel, Maverick on the Hindu, the Kingfisher, and then Phantom Sprint on Echo Tower would be a good progression to work your way from small easy C1 to long C2+ish while also ratcheting up the length and exposure. After these 4 you should be good to go to fix and fire Zion trade routes(really try not to haul much in Zion since it tears up the rock). After that you will fire Yosemite easy walls in pretty good style.

jon,

Since you live in Westminster, you might find that North Table is a good place to pratrice clean aid and systems. I'm up there from time to time testing new systems, etc.

There are some great clean thin cracks (C1) to aid as well. Good place to practice hauling and jugging too!

And like Andrew said above, there is plenty of places closer than Yosemite to get experience. Moab is only just over 5 hours drive.

Cheers

John

Moof wrote: Marc, The bailing issue is not as bad as one would think. I bailed off this in July due to heat from Ahwanee ledge without much hassle.

Right on. Sounds like you guys worked out a pretty good system. Good thing you were only 2 pitches up. Imagine doing that from 4 or 5 pitches up. Not impossible for sure; if you've still got your wits about you, it wouldn't be anything more than time consuming. I'm curious to know how much aid/wall experience you had when you worked this out.

--Marc

Marc Horan wrote: Right on. Sounds like you guys worked out a pretty good system. Good thing you were only 2 pitches up. Imagine doing that from 4 or 5 pitches up. Not impossible for sure; if you've still got your wits about you, it wouldn't be anything more than time consuming. I'm curious to know how much aid/wall experience you had when you worked this out. --Marc

I should point out that WFLT is only 5 pitches total the way most folks do it.

P1/2 is overhung, and hard to reverse, but as I said not bad.

P3/4 is trivial and is a straing rap from Guano, free hanging is 6' fro the bolts, so slight bouncing is all that is needed.

P5/6 I've never reversed, but it sounds like it is an easy penji without bags, a bear with them.

P7/8 are not super overhung, maybe 10', so likely just modest bouncing.

P9/10 should never need to be reversed due to that being the top. However I'm told it's doable. The P8 anchors are around the corner, so I'm not sure is going to the P7 anchors is the strategy or what. I forget now.

At the time I had to bail I'd been up WFLT once before and the Prow once before. I also had several bails (WFLT, two on Prow, one on Mideast Crisis) under assorted circumstances. The reality is that I'd made sure I knew the strategy to bail off WFLT (my first route) before I did my first attempt. I hit up forums, studies topos and mentally ran through all the steps.

When I actually had to bail it ended up being much easier than expected and I used fewer draws than expected.

What I heard from other folks:

1. You can use a length of cord, a fifi, and a tent pole to really rap far down between clips. Cleaning can be exciting.

2. One person (Kate?) did the tent pole thing, but also WITH her haulbag. Strenuous, but apparently doable. I preferred to go light to make staying in control easier.

I wouldn't stress how hight to shoot so much. Start on something easy and then just keep going. Each wall is an endeavor and a massive learning curve. You'll talk with other peeps in the Valley and get a feel for what's next, not to mention that the routes themselves will call to you.

Any of the routes you listed are pretty much in the "easy" category so long as you take your time. Guys with no aid experience at all have made it up Mescalito. Wall climbing is more about perseverance than anything else. If you're experienced enough to problem solve on the fly, you can pretty much make it up anything. The only thing that will stop you is fear.

WFLT is very steep, and if it hasn't been mentioned already you will want to practice cleaning overhanging and traversing pitches. More than one person has decided it was "no big deal" and then got stuck trying to jumar around the Kor roof.

Also practice by rolling in bat guano.

Michal Turczyk wrote:I have also been interested in aid climbing for a while and have been slowly accumulating the gear for it, just haven't done any yet. Not to hijack the thread, but rather piggy back, would it be a good idea to try out clean aid climbing on a couple trad routes (maybe 2 - 3 short pitches) you have done before just to get a feel for the system?

Definitely the way to go. Just choose routes that aren't too popular as the first few pitches will tend to take a while to lead, sort out systems, jug etc. Also good fun to practice in the rain, just to find out how desperate it can be on a wall with water running down the walls and into your clothing... Some people use kayak jackets!

Yeah, making it challenging doesn't really matter, it's all about the systems. Lead, clean and haul. I did this a few times before I finally climbed an actual wall, and it prepared me well. Getting your aider/daisy lengths right and figuring out where everything needs to be to work for you allows you to get right to the climbing once you get on an actual wall.

rickd wrote:jon- be aware,that many desert, canadian rockies, & obscure wall routes are rated "A.2+" which can be very, very, very hard.

5.9 A2... does any other rating exist in the Canadian rockies?