Should Solar Flare be chopped?

First of all I think we should all remember that this is just a chunk of rock up the hill from the road. Albeit it is a chunk of rock with a really nice line on it, but let's face it, it certainly isn't a critical component of survival of the human species.

With that in perspective I really believe it is up to the first ascentionists (Jim and Eric) to decided on this matter. I find it to be in incredibly good form that they are asking the climbing community (that's us) what we think on the matter. However with everything in life there are many different opinions, and as it always has been with bolting there are some strong ones. You never will please everyone, and there is always going to be at least one yahoo complaining. At the end of the day I think that the choice should come down to what Eric and Jim feel they want to leave as a climb - or as I it see a work of artistic expression.

I think it is a great line, with or without bolts - although I have yet to attempt the without part. It's on my list to do on gear - which will be an easy decision if they decide to chop.

The only consideration that I think is truly important in this manner is that if the bolts are chopped that the rock not be damaged. I know that Eric and Jim are pros at this, so I really don't have any worries. I have however seen the brutal removal of bolts (over bolting wars) leave huge scars in the rock. In that case I would rather see the bolts than what looks like gunshots damage to the rock.

Thanks to Jim and Eric for putting up this great climb, and for being gracious in listening to others opinions on this matter.

Chop

No worries Eric, there will be no sign that the climb ever had bolts on it when were done.
In fact as everyone leads the route they should take time to see if they can spot the bolt holes. Should make the lead a bit more interesting and a bit more pumpy.

Christian wrote:In another universe where my opinion had any validity (ipso es I climbed anywhere close to 5.11 trad),I'd say chop 'em.

ditto. the way it is now i could probably get up this thing on the first attempt, probably redpoint it in 4 or 5 tries, which is kinda silly since i'm not that strong a climber. with no bolts this thing is way out of my league and gives me something to dream about one day sending; climbs like this are where my motivation comes from, far more than just working my way up the grades in the sport climbing environment.

BTW you guys are awesome for putting up all these sweet routes.

As an absolute outsider with no dog in this fight at all, I'd like to make a point; just for conversation. What if an adept soloist came through and rattled off a bunch of solo's on whatever bolted routes you have down there. Then, he/she demands that all these routes be chopped because he/she has done the routes in a purer style. The logic being put forth here extends to this possible scenario.

You know, this has been stated probably a thousand times before, but just because bolts are there doesn't mean you have to clip them. Seems to me a all-trad ascent bypassing the bolts might even have additional personal significance. And in the meantime, people who may never have the ability to pass over that section of stone without the bolts are still able to.

This all just seems a little exclusionary. And kind of macabre too.
Just an opinion from afar.

Mike Lane wrote:As an absolute outsider with no dog in this fight at all, I'd like to make a point; just for conversation. What if an adept soloist came through and rattled off a bunch of solo's on whatever bolted routes you have down there. Then, he/she demands that all these routes be chopped because he/she has done the routes in a purer style. The logic being put forth here extends to this possible scenario. You know, this has been stated probably a thousand times before, but just because bolts are there doesn't mean you have to clip them. Seems to me a all-trad ascent bypassing the bolts might even have additional personal significance. And in the meantime, people who may never have the ability to pass over that section of stone without the bolts are still able to. This all just seems a little exclusionary. And kind of macabre too. Just an opinion from afar.

yeah yeah we covered all that. read the thread titled "what's the hardest trad climb in southern arizona?"

Mike Lane wrote:As an absolute outsider with no dog in this fight at all, I'd like to make a point; just for conversation. What if an adept soloist came through and rattled off a bunch of solo's on whatever bolted routes you have down there. Then, he/she demands that all these routes be chopped because he/she has done the routes in a purer style. The logic being put forth here extends to this possible scenario. You know, this has been stated probably a thousand times before, but just because bolts are there doesn't mean you have to clip them. Seems to me a all-trad ascent bypassing the bolts might even have additional personal significance. And in the meantime, people who may never have the ability to pass over that section of stone without the bolts are still able to. This all just seems a little exclusionary. And kind of macabre too. Just an opinion from afar.

1) The presence of the bolts changes the traditional experience.
2) There are five great 5.11 bolted lines for every comperable trad line on Lemmon.
3) Nobody demanded the bolts be removed. The FAs offered to remove the bolts once they realized the climb could be well-protected by gear.

Hey Mike, as Jon said we covered a lot of that in the other thread. Also Jim and I felt bad that we bolted it once we lead it on gear and realized it had bomber protection. In our defense it was drizzling and it was pretty cold so we were in hurry up mode otherwise it would not have happened. We had already put up a number of other gear lines in the area and a gear route is a lot cheaper to climb. As with many good adventure leads this will be one the leaders will remember longer than if they did it as a clip up. And as said before a good new trad lead is more and more the exception than the rule around here. It was actually Jim's idea to do this community vote thread and I think it was a good idea even though it means we will have to spend an hour or two returning it to it's original (almost) state. On the bright side it will give us 6 or 7 hangers to use on a route that needs bolts. Will try not to blow it so bad in the future. Get out there and clip it up or you will need to bring your rack as the steel will soon be gone. Thanks for the positive feedback and for casting your votes. EFR

Eric, you need to be commended for your approach with this. It would be easy to do nothing, but you chose to maintain integrity and be democratic about it also.

It seems to me (again from afar) that the presence of the bolts are what opened that line up. The challenge of a Trad FA is you don't know what you're getting into, especially at .11 and north, where the face starts getting pretty blank. Would Mr. Spain have fired up the line without preknowledge of its grade?

You stated the the Spaniard wasn't bothered by the bolts. Sounds like a copacetic fellow just out enjoying his time out in the sun on the stone. I wonder why so many of us get so wound up. The only reason I added to this thread was all those "Chop Chop Chop's" seem to contain a hint of hostility.

Mr. Hundal stated that "The presence of the bolts changes the traditional experience". I remember back in the 80's when the Flatirons bolting ban was being enacted. Boulder Mtn. Parks held some meetings to discuss the issue (although it became apparent that the woman in charge had pre-determined the outcome). A classic example of a Left-Hand Canyon teepeee-living Boulder hippie stood up and announced that the mere presence of climbers in the Flatirons were ruining his "wilderness" experience. Whatever we are intolerant of, there's probably something that each of us does that bugs the shit out of someone else. I personally am intolerant of people with blinders on (Right wing, Left wing, Jihadi's, Tradiban) I think being mentally and physically strong enough to climb past bolts on gear would give me a bigger rush, but thats just an opinion.

Hope I'm not regurgitating stuff said on the hard AZ trad thread, as Bob D. stated I'm a little north and don't care enough to peruse that one.

I hear you Mike it does get to be an endless rerun sometimes. I climb by bolts a lot so that when I actually do come across a runnout section I am mentally prepared. But there are times even on routes I know I can climb that I have to do some mental gymnastics about clipping or skipping. So I agree with Geir about it changing the nature. Yet we have avoided most of the emotionally charged rhetoric in this thread. I think most of it was in the other thread. Also the route in question was done on rappel and so we didn't really venture into the unknown. But if it were longer we would have gone ground up as it is way more of an adventure then. Mr. Spain would have too he seems to be that kind of guy. I have said before that there is room for the variety of climbing experiences we have now, enjoy whichever one or all that you choose to take part in. Hope it's warm enough up there to be hitting the crags now and then.

I'm a little surprised you guys even bothered to post the question. For starters it just opens you up to more abuse. (Damn you have to have thick skin to drill a hole, eh ?) Secondly, I suspect you knew the answer all along. That first day I went out there I remember I had a (low-priority background) thread running in my head wondering whether the gear was good enough to go clean.

But it makes for entertaining reading while I'm waiting for my Java program to compile. I was just hoping someone would call someone an asshole, but no luck.

Mike Lane wrote:Hope I'm not regurgitating stuff said on the hard AZ trad thread, as Bob D. stated I'm a little north and don't care enough to peruse that one.

i'd say the odds of a rerun of the last three pages of "what's the hardest trad climb in southern arizona?" are pretty high at this point.

Eric Rhicard wrote:Get out there and clip it up or you will need to bring your rack as the steel will soon be gone. Thanks for the positive feedback and for casting your votes. EFR

The consensus has been determined. Let the dead horse rest in peace.

Babe...I got you babe...

No need for a rerun. The steel is gone. Two were left that were 5 piece rawls and I didn't have the right sized wrench. With luck they will be gone tomorrow. It is a damn sight better looking without the hangers.

Chop! less is more.

Just because the ladies have told you that your whole life doesn't make it true Peter!

Ouch!