Releasing tension on haul bags, etc.

I'm a relatively new Big Wall Theorist. I'm curious what people here suggest to use for releasing tension on a loaded rope (assuming you are working off a two bolt anchor with no natural gear or other bolts available.) For example, if I have hauled up a heavy bag with a Pro Traxion Pulley off the anchor masterpoint, and then I want to lift the bag a few more inches, without the pulley, to take tension off the pulley so I can put the pulley in non-locking mode. I hope this question makes sense. I figured a prusik or maybe some other knot? Is it a good idea to not haul bags too high close up to the anchor for this reason? Thanks.

SFClimber wrote:I'm a relatively new Big Wall Theorist. I'm curious what people here suggest to use for releasing tension on a loaded rope (assuming you are working off a two bolt anchor with no natural gear or other bolts available.) For example, if I have hauled up a heavy bag with a Pro Traxion Pulley off the anchor masterpoint, and then I want to lift the bag a few more inches, without the pulley, to take tension off the pulley so I can put the pulley in non-locking mode. I hope this question makes sense. I figured a prusik or maybe some other knot? Is it a good idea to not haul bags too high close up to the anchor for this reason? Thanks.

Hauling your pig too high can really bite you in the ass if you have a heavy load. I am not familiar with a prussik system or anything like that. I typically climb with 2 others on a wall so we usually just use man power and pull it up enough to clip a daisy or runner in short then you can release your traxion. I would be intrested to hear a much better and easier way to accomplish that as well.
cheers

Don't Haul the pig too high!! It can be a pain to unlock the Pro-taxion. On the beaner that your haul bag is clipped to, girth a long 7mm cordalette. Don't tie the lose ends together but, make sure they're even. When you've got the bags to the anchtake that long cord and use it to secure the bag to a sperate biner using a munther mule hitch with a backup not (don't want lose the pigs!!). Then give the bags one more good pull with your ascender to unlock the pro-traxion and ease the bags onto the cordalette.

Make sence?

Calling Dr Piton....

I use a docking cord to attach the bag to the anchors.

Check out Andy K's web site which offers some good hints on how to do it correctly.

psychovertical.com/?haulbags

I'll post up more if time allows but I'm working this weekend.

Also check out this link...

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…

John McNamee wrote:Calling Dr Piton.... I use a docking cord to attach the bag to the anchors. Check out Andy K's web site which offers some good hints on how to do it correctly. psychovertical.com/?haulbags I'll post up more if time allows but I'm working this weekend.

Yes thank you!
That's what I was taliking about. Couldn't remember the term "docking cord".

I've used the double wrapped Chongo knot, and find it much more cumbersome and messy than a good old munter-mule knot. YMMV.

Thanks everyone for the info!

Re-reading the original question I think there is a sequence element as well.

My method:

1. Haul bags till the knot is within an inch or two of the hauler.

2. Tie figure 8 on the free side of the hauler and clip into the locker with a foot or two of slack (basically whatever is necessary to leave your ascender on the line for one last pull). Be careful as to how you route the backup clip in, as it's easy to end up creating a cluster with the lead line here just by clipping through a loop of the other rope.

3. Then tie off the bags a second time with the load release knot (munter mule is not my preferred). Alternatively clip in a daisy, adjustable daisy strap (Fish budget bag for example), or whatever your poison is as tight as possible.

4. Haul the bags that last inch to allow release of hauling ratchet to straight pulley mode. You can then ease the bags onto your load release knot. It is important to have ~1 foot or so of slack between the hauler and your ascender to allow the load release knot to take the load before your ascender is jammed up against the hauler.

5. Disassemble the hauler. Dig into the bag for munchies and such.

6. Count the lichens. When complete, name them. Repeat until your partner is at the next anchor.

When it comes time to release:

1. If there is a lower out needed, retie the bag tie in knot to get all the slack ready for lower out. If you are nervous about having the bags only tied in by the release knot use slings to take the place of the backup tie in. Alternatively use your dedicated lower out line for this and screw the knot retying.

2. Let your partner tension things up to mostly take the bag weight and for god sakes make sure here is ready to haul! Agree on the ground that in the event of poor communications you are NOT ALLOWED TO TENSION THE BAGS UNLESS YOU ARE READY TO HAUL!!!! By ready to haul I mean the rope must be through the hauler, and the end clipped into the anchor.

3. Unclip the backup knot and if needed get the bags on belay for lower out, including threading the lower out line through a biner.

4. Dismantle the load release knot, easing the tension onto your belay. For simple stuff the bag will just sink onto the haul line. For way traversing stuff you will have a large percentage of the weight on you.

5. Lower the bags out using best judgement.

6. Clean the pitch and repeat.

Other knots:

With two strands a Munter-Mariner knot also works. Basically you start with a numter, then you wind both strands together down the standing lines. Lastly you poke the ends through the standing lines and finish with a couple overhands around the backside.

Chongo knot was improperly drawn when I first saw a pic. You start with a munter (might have just been two wraps around the biner, I forget, but I used a munter). One strand is wrapped 4-8 times clockwise down the standing ropes. Then the second strand is wrapped COUNTER-clockwise down the rope 4-8 times. The ends are then tied together with a couple overhands.

Both of these knots are a PITA if you have long tails, as you end up whipping yourself in the face, or frigging with the resulting snarls as you try to keep tension on the munter while untying it. I find I like the Munter-Mule best, Munter-Mariner next best, and the Chongo knot the least. Your mileage may vary.

Ooops, sorry for the delay - I've been in Kentucky caving.

First thing is to never haul too close to your hauling device, as others above have pointed out. If you somehow jam your pig up into the cam, you have effectively buggered yourself, and it is almost impossible to release the cam.

If you have hauled your pig, then by definition you can lift it, and accordingly you can lift it enough to release the cam.

I assume you "get" what to do with your pig before you release the cam on the hauling device, which is to secure it to the anchor using some kind of "load release knot" or "munter mule", which is usually using a dedicated cord you have on your pig, which I call a Docking Tether. [I call it that, but Chongo taught me the idea] You could use your haul line tied in a munter mule, but normally I like to stack my haul line upside down in the rope bag, having it ready to go for the next pitch.

Here are your Dr. Piton Big Wall Tips of the Day:

- avoid hauling your pig too close to the hauling device

- try hauling with your Grigri, instead of with a jug or two. This sounds counter-intuitive at first, and you may not believe it will work until you actually try it. It is particularly effective for heavy 1:1 hauling, where you can't just clip your jugs on and jug, you actually have to turn your body upside-down and put your feet against the wall and push downwards. The Grigri works great in this application

- even if you have done a regular space haul, switch to your Grigri for the part where you release the cam on the hauling device to lower your pig onto your Docking Tether. Why? Because you can release the Grigri under tension! It's so easy! Put your haul line through your Grigri, put your feet against the wall, put one hand on the teeth of the cam on the hauling device, and put your other hand on the release lever of the Grigri, and do what feels good. Voila! Your pig is docked

- with practice, you will learn how to tie your Docking Tether tightly so that when you dock your pig, it does not lose much height

- often when you set up your Big Wall Campsite, you want your pig docked as high as possible. Accordingly, you must also haul it from as high a point as possible. In the scenario you describe above - a two-bolt anchor - try hauling your pig by putting your hauling device directly on one of the bolts. And no - I don't mean put the hauling device locker right through the bolt itself! I mean, put a regular D-shaped carabiner [the strongest] through the bolt, or even a locker, and clip your hauling device locker into this bolt in order to maintain the appropriate Degree of Freedom [know what ah mean, Vern?]

- only do this if your bolt is bomber!

- even on bomber bolts, you have to back up your system for redundancy, so join the two bolts together with a horizontal sling. This way if the single bolt you are hauling from blows, your load will swing onto the other bolt

- in theory, you would think a Yates Screamer would be a preferable thing to use to join the two bolts, but one wonders if this is necessary if you have zero slack in the sling? It sure can't hurt to use a Screamer

You can graduate from BWT to BWG [Big Wall Gumby] by reaching the summit of a big wall by legit means. If you are really bitchin', you can even do it on your own. Go to your local crag, even if it's only a single pitch high, and do what I did - practise solo leading and hauling a big bag of rocks. Choose a crack you can aid, and set up a hauling anchor in the middle of the pitch, pretending it's a big wall. You will learn how to haul almost twice your body weight [using the 2:1 Hauling Ratchet, yet another Chongo invention] and have the confidence to know that you can haul enough stuff up a big wall that you will eventually reach the summit.

That's what I did - practised on one-pitch routes hauling rocks - and then I went to El Cap and soloed Iron Hawk. Scared the piss out of me, that free climbing - never again am I leading that pitch, man.

As you can see, I appear less motivated to repair old posts like my Scorched Earth trip report, that John lovingly and painstakingly transferred over here.

However I am always keen to answer real live big wall questions, so BRING 'EM ON!

If you address your post something along the lines of "Ask Dr. Piton about ....." then it will catch my eye, or John will write me an email to remind me.

BUT PLEASE - don't think I am asking for exclusivity. Everyone has great ideas to share, and the only way I can learn new stuff is by reading what other people have to say. So have at it, let's share ideas. I'm just saying I am highly motivated to answer "fresh" questions that people really want answers for, rather than sort of preaching about stuff I might happen to like, but have already answered.

Know what ah mean, Vern? [you can tell ah was just in Kentucky....]

Cheers,
The Doc
Big Wall Parvenu

So much for the new improved Pete. 20 paragraphs, and the only added info is to haul with a gri-gri instead of a jug... On the plus side, I didn't see any new inane acronyms.

Attach a daisy chain/sling to the haul point on your haul bag. On the other end of the daisy chain/sling have a biner with a fifi hook attached. (Make sure you tuck this into the top of the bag when hauling). When the bag is hauled about at the point where you want it to hang it, drop the bags weight onto the hauler, take out the daisy chain, set the biner and fifi hook on the approprate daisy so that when you lift the bag (about 4-6") via aiders through the hauler, you can hook the fifi onto the belay hanging point. Raise the bag by stepping in your aiders, hold the cam back in your hauler while hooking the fifi onto the belay point. Release weight from the aider and keep the cam in your hauler open. The bag will drop and the weight will be hanging onto the fifi instead of the hauler. You now can easily remove the hauler and attach it to the leader.

I prefer using a daisy chain over a sling. That way I have options to position the haul bag. I keep a butt bag in the back of my paints. At a hanging belay I place the haul bag so I can sit in my butt bag and utilize the top of the haul bag as a platform. Knee pads are a must since your knees will be digging into the cliff. Not a barka lounger but better than having your harness dig into your sides.

Using a daisy chain instead of a sling gives you some extra clipping points for misc gear like water/cameras/inflatable dolls etcetra away from anchoring points and easy to clip directly too from the top of the haul bag. Keeps things cleaner from working ropes and safety points. The fifi hook also makes unhitching the bag when your partner begins to haul a cinch since all you have to do is make sure the fifi releases from the anchoring point when the weight is off of it. Just make sure you quickly tuck the daisy back into the top of the bag before your partner hauls the bag beyond your reach so the daisy chain,biner and fifi hook does'nt get pummelled between the bag and the rock or caught on a flake during the haul (big bummer).

Did not have a chance to read the other posts. That's what I have been doing for years and it seems to work well.