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Routes in The Chossmine

Alien Formation S 5.11d 7a 24 VIII 25 E5 6a
Ape and the Dragon, The S 5.12d 7c 28 IX 28 E6 6b
Big Dihedral, The S 5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
Carpe Saturdiem S 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a
Crisp Crust S 5.11a 6c 22 VII+ 22 E3 5c
Dark Horse S 5.13+ 8b 30 X- 31 E7 7a
Dither S 5.11b 6c 23 VIII- 23 E3 5c
Don't Bust Yer Melon S 5.10d 6b+ 21 VII+ 21 E3 5b
Half a Step S 5.13 8a 29 X- 30 E7 6c
Melon Direct S 5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
Pack a Wallop S 5.10d 6b+ 21 VII+ 21 E3 5b
Scary 12a S 5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
Shogun S 5.13 8a 29 X- 30 E7 6c
Shotgun S 5.13 8a 29 X- 30 E7 6c
Slabster S 5.10c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b
Unknown Awesome Route S 5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
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Elevation: 6,287 ft
GPS: 34.722, -111.107 Google Map · Climbing Area Map
Page Views: 2,145 total · 276/month
Shared By: Rob Edwards on Jan 31, 2018
Admins: Greg Opland, Luke Bertelsen, JJ Schlick
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Description

Obscure area characterized largely by choss low on the cliff, and beautiful rock up higher. Literally thousands of pounds of choss have been pried from the walls, but more junk rock remains! Be warned - some bolts are anchored in choss, which is sort of horrifying. Extra caution and skill are prerequisites for climbing here.

Rob and Harry Edwards "discovered" this area back in approximately 2010 with many abandoned projects from earlier pioneers, and basically performed a sort of overhaul, prying off tons of loose rock, adding bolts, etc.

For the most part, the cliff bakes in the sun all day. Best as a cold winter day destination.

The Jacks Canyon fire took a toll on this area, burning trees and shattering rock on sections of the cliff.

Getting There

While traveling from the North, pass mp 311 on SR 87 and turn right onto Forest Road 69 (to Chavez Pass and Long Lake). After turning onto Forest Road 69, turn immediately to the left, and drive up a short, steep, rocky rise (road crux.) Take a meandering dirt road to an obvious fence line and trend uphill, following the road as it runs parallel to the fence. Drive close to the canyon rim, and park. Take a faint trail down the ridge atop the cliff, and when you get down into the canyon, turn left to get to the routes. Any significant snowfall will make the road impassable unless you have some awesome 4WD rig. Be warned that the condition of the road may have changed and degraded. A few years ago, it was possible - with great caution - to drive a sedan without scraping. (But some hunters on ATVs thought we were completely insane.) The drive from the junction of Forest Road 69 and Highway 87 to the canyon rim is just over a mile. The descent to the cliff is approximately .25 mile.

16 Total Climbs

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deidre burton
winslow, az
deidre burton   winslow, az
way to go, rob. just because a route or crag is unpublished doesn't mean it's abandoned. and YOU don't get to make that decision. you know very well who's crag that is, and, despite us knowing each other for almost two decades, you never contacted me about this. for the record, this area is called Tokonave, and it was bolted and climbed in the late 90's and early 2000s. there are 18 documented, climbed, sent routes there, that have been repeated over the years. i have photos, witnesses, and other climber ascents to back this up.

is this what you are teaching harry? to take someone else's hard work, paint it with your brush and call it your own??
well, now i'm going to have fun re-doing your "abandoned" routes. maybe i'll start with that supposed 5.15a in clear creek. or maybe i'll see if there are any abandoned crags in the little colorado river near Holbrook.

I strongly suggest you start fixing this enormous mess you have made, posthaste.

my phone number is 928-289-4989. and you know where to find me. Apr 1, 2018
Quit being selfish douches. Share the wealth! Thanks Rob Apr 1, 2018
I'm surprised by the negativity and purported evidence, but whatever. The "documented, climbed, sent routes" you're talking about, Deidre, obviously weren't documented in your guidebook, and they couldn't include the several which I bolted myself or those with long stretches devoid of bolts which I then completed bolting after extensive cleaning and prying of death blocks. Nor could they include the two with sunbleached ties (like the ones at the Asylum's Main Wall) and disintegrating glue-jobs signalling disinterest for as long as it took the glue to begin disintegrating. My son and I spent days working at that cliff as I bolted and he cleaned, and on parallel lines, we both pried thousands of pounds of death choss from the routes I bolted or completed bolting, never fathoming that haters like episteme would at some future point ascribe it to ego. So I'll be intrigued by whatever evidence is forthcoming, and amused, Deidre, if you happen to claim the FA of any of the routes which I bolted.

In my opinion, the two routes with bleached ties and disintegrating glue which I encouraged my son to climb were fair game. So's anything out there in such a state of neglect. For anyone who cares, I can provide proof of similarly abandoned routes elsewhere in Jacks Canyon. I'm talking about routes with ties which were bleached white when I discovered them almost a decade ago, and which remain unchanged and unclimbed today. At a certain point, they're fair game even if somebody like Deidre put in the hard work of bolting them years earlier. Deidre, if you find routes out there like that which I've bolted, you should absolutely feel free to climb them.

In 2010, I had no reason to suppose that anyone - including Deidre, whom I've only bumped into two or three times in 20 years - had any lingering interest in routes at the neglected and chossy cliff. I remain grateful to Deidre and others for their excellent routes elsewhere in the canyon. Apr 1, 2018
1Eric Rhicard
Tucson
1Eric Rhicard   Tucson
No idea what is going on at this crag but if you are not working it you cannot claim it. If you continue to work it or are getting over an injury people should respect the effort you are putting into it and wait til you get it or pass it on. Apr 2, 2018
Eric: Deidre Burton and Rick Cecala have made woefully inaccurate and incendiary claims. I can't believe I'm now going to have to embark on a mission to prove that I'm totally right and they're totally wrong about a chossy, obscure, but fun cliff which my kids and I enjoyed in 2010-2011 after Harry and I did a massive amount of work out there, but I will. And not on Mountain Project, because I know that's not the purpose of this website. But I value the positive reputation which my family and I have developed in the climbing community, and I have bolted many, many routes for people to enjoy. Like you - and Deidre - I've spent thousands of dollars on bolts and hangers, and I've put in tons of elbow grease. I'm not interested in the likes of Deidre and Rick trashing my reputation or my son's because Deidre is misremembering, or - worse yet - has chosen to be dishonest for reasons I can't begin to fathom. Deidre and Rick, you're welcome to apologize here - publicly - before you embarrass yourselves yet more. Get your evidence ready. Wow - anybody want to claim that Timmy Fairfield painted Child of Light with his own brush after somebody else actually bolted it, redpointed it, and gave it a name? Good grief. Apr 2, 2018
deidre burton
winslow, az
deidre burton   winslow, az
rob, chris hahn alerted me to the fact that someone was changing things on established routes at tokonave: anchors were moved off a few routes, bolts were added, etc. when i immediately checked it out, i was dismayed at the audacity of someone going to so much effort at someone else's crag without talking to them first. if you had just contacted me, i would have given you a tour of the established routes, and let you know which of the already bolted and cleaned projects i was still working on, or which ones i would love for harry to send. also, i would have contacted bryan fife for you to see if he cared if you "overhauled" his routes. i would have explained to you that the dude from idaho had put up a few bolted ladders in steep, chossy sections, and then left. i would have welcomed you and harry's efforts at tokonave. all you had to do was contact me. that simple courtesy from one bolter to another would have prevented all this. i also understand that you had this same problem at Mentmore. for someone who has so much experience with first ascents, it seems like you would understand the problems with taking over an obviously in-the-works crag without talking to anyone. (moreover....why not just find your OWN crag?? ) Apr 2, 2018
The National Forest belongs to us all. Unless a crag sits on private property, it's not proprietary. Nobody has to track down a person who may think they own a cliff in Jacks Canyon in order to secure permission to put up new routes or complete long-abandoned routes. Deidre, please identify photographically or by video or hand-drawn diagram each of the eighteen established routes you claim you or others had bolted and redpointed out there before my son and I came along. Please identify the projects you claim you were still working on, and when you bolted them. Then, to clear myself and my son, I'll provide my own evidence. (I would gladly provide my own evidence first except that given your deception to this point, I'm going to give you every opportunity to fully expose your folly by laying claim to routes which you didn't even bolt.) Anyone following this unfortunate thread will learn just how deceptive and insulting you and Rick Cecala have chosen to be.

Like one or two early route developers at Mentmore who thought of that cliff as their own and were threatened by the addition of new routes, you seem to suffer the same problem. Please explain the logic of people having to find a cliff which has never before been touched in order to make contributions, or how that pattern has been followed in the history of American rock climbing, or how that mentality will be of benefit to anyone. Apr 2, 2018
deidre burton
winslow, az
deidre burton   winslow, az
when was the last time you were there, rob? Apr 2, 2018
Rob, neither I nor Deidre said it was improper to add routes to an existing area on public property. Happens all the time. But as I understand the route developing community’s norms, it is not OK, on public or private land, to alter someone else’s routes without their permission. It’s pretty easy to guess who would’ve been bolting in that area, or would know who was, yet you made no attempt to contact that obvious source of information (and permission). As for your justification that the routes were “abandoned,” how can you tell an abandoned route from one that is not? I got on a route in Sedona recently that was covered in dust and spider webs. Does that mean it has been abandoned? Am I free to add a bolt or change the line of the climb? Deidre is one of the most honest people I know. I take her word for what happened out there; I don’t have first-hand knowledge. But I have been on at least one route that she says is hers, to which a bolt was added, and from the description that route sounds a lot like your “Dither.” If you changed the route without permission, renamed it and gave FA credit to Harry, then maybe you should rethink your indignation. And if I’m wrong, and I’m satisfied that that never happened with any route at Tokonave, then per your wishes I will publicly apologize to you. I also had an issue with the way you portrayed this area. Deidre Burton knows how to clean and bolt sport routes. While I believe there was no need to add this “obscure chossmine” of a crag to MP at all, eight years after your “massive amount” of work, in doing so I don’t see why you needed to denigrate the efforts of those who “pioneered” the area (scary bolting, chossmine, horrifying bolts anchored in choss, etc.). You made it sound like you and your sons rode in on a white horse and rescued the area from the nincompoops who discovered it. That’s how it reads to me, and that’s pretty unfair to Deidre and all the (competent) work that she did out there long before you showed up. Apr 2, 2018
My son has urged me to be more gracious, and less aggressive. Good advice. I'll affirm my gratitude to Deidre for lots of fun routes at Jacks Canyon and sign off. Apr 2, 2018

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